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Old December 2nd, 2011, 12:04 PM   #2981
g.spinoza
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It should be Carena-IELPO, if I'm not mistaken
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Old December 4th, 2011, 09:44 PM   #2982
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Does anyone know when the A33 from Cuneo to Alba (and vice-versa) will be completed?
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Old December 4th, 2011, 10:10 PM   #2983
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The whole motorway *should* be completed in 2013.
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Old December 5th, 2011, 06:59 PM   #2984
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Works for the enlargement of A14 between Rimini and Cattolica to three lanes proceed at full power: it seems that they can open the in-site enlarged Scacciano tunnel next Easter, and the whole lot Rimini-Cattolica at the end of 2012, both 14 months ahead of schedule.

http://www.autostrade.it/comunicati/...25795D00437BFE
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Old December 5th, 2011, 07:39 PM   #2985
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kudos to Autostrade per l'Italia. They are one of the best private operators of toll roads I know.

Now, we keep all waiting for the opening of the Variante di Valico.
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Old December 5th, 2011, 07:54 PM   #2986
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Now, we keep all waiting for the opening of the Variante di Valico.

When will be the opening of the rest part of Variante di Valico?? Next year is it possible??
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Old December 5th, 2011, 08:00 PM   #2987
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Part of it (22 km between Badia and Barberino del Mugello, including the 8.5-km two-tubes tunnel "di Valico") should be opened at the end of 2012.
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Old December 5th, 2011, 08:58 PM   #2988
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kudos to Autostrade per l'Italia. They are one of the best private operators of toll roads I know.
[...]
But also one of the most expensive. A medium-length trip in Italy costs as much as a whole year driving on Swiss highways...
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Old December 5th, 2011, 09:07 PM   #2989
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Italian motorway tolls are among the cheapest of western / southern Europe. Only some mountain stretches approach the French or Spanish tolls.
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Old December 5th, 2011, 09:15 PM   #2990
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I think we should get rid of toll booths, thery're expensive to build and to mantain and occupy too much land, especially in a country like Italy where there's not much land to spare. I think we should introduce vignettes like Austria or Switzerland; however, I don't know how feasible it is in a country the size of Italy.
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Old December 5th, 2011, 09:36 PM   #2991
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I think we should get rid of toll booths, thery're expensive to build and to mantain and occupy too much land, especially in a country like Italy where there's not much land to spare. I think we should introduce vignettes like Austria or Switzerland; however, I don't know how feasible it is in a country the size of Italy.
We could have electronic tolling. Vignettes wouldn't work properly, because they price required to match the toll income would be too high. Moreover, the system of financing highways in Italy is totally different.

In any case, electronic tolling should work just fine. Indeed, I wish EU came up with a scheme having an unified protocol for electronic tolling/vignette EU-wide, so that an "Eurotransponder", that would fit all cars in EU, could be used in any country interchangeable (that doesn't mean unified toll systems, just a common standard for toll charging, then we'd have competing companies offering subscriptions and devices).

Toll booths have had an unintended positive consequence, though: they require better exits with longer (or twisting) ramps, and void the proliferation of exits in urban areas of medium size. If there were no toll booths, be sure cities like Piacenza, Ancona, Genova, Firenze would all be carving for 20 freeway exits each, so that the autostrade could be used for short urban trips, defeating their purpose and creating more highway congestion.
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Old December 5th, 2011, 11:02 PM   #2992
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I think you're mostly right, even if I think that a heavy motorway user in countries like France or Italy at the end of the year pays way too much. Maybe in Italy a regional vignette could be used: one for Northern Italy, one for Central-Southern, or something like that.
About toll booths forcing less exits into newly-built autostrade, this is certainly true, even if this can be easily rendered vain by using toll barriers (like in Milan-area A4, or AP-7 around Barcelona): only that brief section would be toll-free, while long-trippers would pay full price at the barrier, and builders can fit many booth-free exits in urban areas.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 03:11 AM   #2993
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IMO front toll stations are very well placed in Italy (they are rare), even if you change the motorway number. not like in France, where for i.e. A4 you pass 7 toll stations.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 03:38 AM   #2994
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IMO front toll stations are very well placed in Italy
Except the one on Milano ring (and the one on the 8-lane part of A8 northwest of Milano is also annoying).
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Old December 6th, 2011, 07:53 AM   #2995
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Barrier tolls are bad because they impede the flow of traffic and certainly take up a lot of land. They are also prime spots for creating traffic jams.

I don't think regional vignettes would work either. After all, the majority or car traffic stays near a relatively small radius. And then, think of the inconvenience of buying 5 different vignettes if you usually drive around Treviso, but then decides to go in a vacation to Corfú. Windshield madness. And it would be grossly unfair to pay a very high cost of vignettes for just an yearly trip down south, for instance.

The example of Milano is indeed a good one: the highways there are congested, and only a fraction of all users pay tolls, despite using the tangenziali to move around the outer districts.

Eliminating physical tolls could also reduce, a bit, the toll charges because collecting tolls is an expensive enterprise with all manpower, security measures to transport money to banks etc.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 09:47 AM   #2996
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Except the one on Milano ring (and the one on the 8-lane part of A8 northwest of Milano is also annoying).
And several toll stations around Torino - if you are in transit, you must stop several times to pay small 1,0-1,5 € tolls, often you have to wait up to 5 minutes for that, because automatic coin collectors don't work well with coins issued outside Italy. Removing those barriers would also allow reconstruction for simplifying transit connections around Torino, for example A4 (from Milano) - A55 (tangenziale nord) connection.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 09:48 AM   #2997
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Eliminating physical tolls could also reduce, a bit, the toll charges because collecting tolls is an expensive enterprise with all manpower, security measures to transport money to banks etc.
I believe that they are going to build the new parts of the A12 between Civitavecchia and Livorno on the basis of an open system (i.e. you only pay when you pass particular points) to be charged electronically. So no requirement to stop anywhere.

But absent that type of electronic options, the debate between open and closed tolling systems is a classical one. For the long-distance driver, clearly, closed systems are preferable and they are also the fairest type of charging. But I can see the merit of open systems in dense-traffic areas in particular. Having a toll station at every exit is much trickier to handle in that type of areas than large barriers at the fringes of town. Plus at many exits in urban areas, there wouldn't be space for a toll station big enough to satisfy the numbers of traffic entering and exiting there. As long as the bulk of the traffic makes comparable journeys that include the toll station, the toll is fair on the bulk of the traffic. But for some routes, it is difficult to find a justification for working with an open system - at least for me (French A4 anyone?).

Anyway, I think that the French A4 isn't really representative of that country. In both France and Italy, the vast majority of the toll routes are closed system, which permits the long distance driver to drive for hundreds of kilometers without having to stop for toll stations. But both countries have their exceptions. In France that would be routes like the A4, in Italy you'd think of the A8, A9 and A32.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 10:52 AM   #2998
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As long as the bulk of the traffic makes comparable journeys that include the toll station, the toll is fair on the bulk of the traffic.
I don't know what current figures are, but in mid-2000s about 40% of the vehicles using the tangenziali di Milano didn't pay any toll, shifting the burden to out-of-town commuters (mostly) and truck traffic to subsidize local traffic.

We also have many cities like Bologna and Verona where "tangenziali" were built for local traffic with money ultimately collected from tolls.
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Last edited by Suburbanist; December 6th, 2011 at 11:06 AM.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 11:29 AM   #2999
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It's not very likely that that figure changed in the meantime. To a certain degree, the Milanese situation is odd. It is one of the few major towns in Western Europe where not only the inroads are tolled (for which an open system works well), but also the ring road.

If you then look at where the toll stations are, it is easy to work out that the tolling places the burden on suburban traffic to and from the North. Whilst there is also suburban traffic to and from the South (admittedly, there is less urban sprawl South of Milan, but its numbers are still substantial) and traffic between Milan proper and the South. Presumably an open system with additional toll stations at the sourthern end of the Tangenziali would yield a much fairer result. But it would come at the usual disadvantages of having an open system with multiple toll collection points...

By the way: what do you mean with "ultimately collected from tolls"? Are the tangenziali of Verona, Bologna and the like owned by concessionaires?
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Last edited by -Pino-; December 6th, 2011 at 01:49 PM.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 01:50 PM   #3000
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And several toll stations around Torino - if you are in transit, you must stop several times to pay small 1,0-1,5 € tolls, often you have to wait up to 5 minutes for that, because automatic coin collectors don't work well with coins issued outside Italy
Is this true? Wow, seems like we're already preparing to go back to old lira
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