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Old December 6th, 2011, 02:00 PM   #3001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Presumably an open system with additional toll stations at the sourthern end of the Tangenziali would yield a much fairer result. But it would come at the usual disadvantages of having an open system with multiple toll collection points...
Or just use electronic tolls, charging by distance. It is not difficult to fit plate readers in every single ramp, even on tight ones.

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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Is this true?
Don't think so. Machines select coins based on size and precise weight, which is tightly controlled by the ECB (otherwise, coins counters in banks wouldn't work at all and it would be chaos).
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Old December 6th, 2011, 02:04 PM   #3002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino-
It's not very likely that that figure changed in the meantime. To a certain degree, the Milanese situation is odd. It is one of the few major towns in Western Europe where not only the inroads are tolled (for which an open system works well), but also the ring road.
Neaples and Genoa too.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 02:12 PM   #3003
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Genoa does not have a tangenziale...
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Old December 6th, 2011, 02:15 PM   #3004
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Originally Posted by keber
because automatic coin collectors don't work well with coins issued outside Italy.
Really? Beverage and food vending machines accept coins regardeless their country of origin.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 02:17 PM   #3005
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Don't think so. Machines select coins based on size and precise weight, which is tightly controlled by the ECB (otherwise, coins counters in banks wouldn't work at all and it would be chaos).
This is my experience with those collectors on Torino tangenziale at those ~1 € toll booths. The worked well only when I put Italian coins. When putting other coins, they were often rejected. Usually now I go to manned booth where there is no problem but there is longer queue.

I remember some news when they introduced Euro it was reported that some vending machines in Italy had an issue with non-italian coins.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 02:19 PM   #3006
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I never had such problems, neither with vending machines nor with autostrade booths. I even had a San Marino euro coin as a change once, and those are very rarely seen outside collector boxes...
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Old December 6th, 2011, 02:26 PM   #3007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza
Genoa does not have a tangenziale...
A10 and A12 serve as tangenziali since there aren't alternative routes.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 02:31 PM   #3008
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
A10 and A12 serve as tangenziali since there aren't alternative routes.
Sure, but they're not, strictly speaking, tangenziali. Otherwise you could say also that Firenze has a toll tangenziale, while in fact it's just the urban part of A1.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 02:43 PM   #3009
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On top of that, when I spoke about "major cities in Western Europe", I clearly was not thinking of a town with the size of Genoa, which is five or six times smaller than the Milan urban area.

Napoli is a bit of a strange story. It matches the stereotype in that the inroads are tolled (A1, A3, A16) and most urban motorways and superstrade are not. But then there is the tolled Tangenziale to form the exception. But to be fair, the Napoli tangenziale is not in any way comparable to Milan's. Milan's tangenziali are vital connectors between motorways that are key within Italy. Napoli's tangenziale is above all a connector from areas in the West of the Napoli urban area into town and to the main axes A1, A3 and A16.

With respect to toll machines and foreign coins, the story surprises me, since the machines will test a coin on the basis of its size and weight. And that should be equal for all euro coins irrespective of the state from which the originate. Anyway, I always pay by card, thus bypassing the cash lane where the queue is invariably longer. I've never fully understood why people insist on using cash. Clearly not all of those cash lane people can be people that have some black money to get rid of...
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Old December 6th, 2011, 07:12 PM   #3010
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Milan's tangenziali are vital connectors between motorways that are key within Italy.
That's true, but the toll station in the northeastern part of the Milano ringroad (A52) is placed on the least transit part of it (except to go from A1 to SS 36).
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Old December 6th, 2011, 07:29 PM   #3011
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
I've never fully understood why people insist on using cash.
Foreigns and Italians who drive only seldom on motorways (eg. less than 10 times per year) usually don't spend extra money for Telepass.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 07:30 PM   #3012
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I think he meant actual coins and bills, not credit cards.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 07:34 PM   #3013
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
I've never fully understood why people insist on using cash. Clearly not all of those cash lane people can be people that have some black money to get rid of...
I don't know about other countries but paying with credit cards in Italy costs. If you pay cash you pay the exact amount and forget about it. If you pay with credit card you will pay more because part goes to the bank. So why would anyone want to spend more for the exact same service?
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Old December 6th, 2011, 07:38 PM   #3014
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If the tolls are € 4 then I pay by credit card € 4 exactly and not a single cent more. Not all credit cards have a surcharge.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 07:44 PM   #3015
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Maybe that is what makes the difference. I pay a fixed annual fee for the use of my credit card and debit card, i.e. irrespective of how often I use it. So by paying the Italian toll with my credit card, I do pay the exact same amount as somebody who pays cash - on the basis of course that I consider the yearly card fees as a given that is not related in any way to the actual transactions for which I use the card.

But if Italian card issuers take an approach in which the user pays on a per-transaction basis, there is a point (on the assumption of course that the extra fuel costs are below the per-transaction costs). Possibly it also explains the European Commission's focus on the Italian banking sector for being onnaturally expensive...
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Old December 6th, 2011, 08:54 PM   #3016
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I don't own a credit card, so I cannot be sure, but I think that they make you pay the interests based on the time between payment and actual transaction, which may occur a month later.
I have a rechargeable credit card and transaction are free, but every recharge costs 1€.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 12:08 AM   #3017
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I only start to pay interest if I don't pay soon enough after receiving my monthly bill. Which never happens, because the credit card company is entitled to automatically debit my bank account. The majority of the costs for operating the credit cards are borne by the shops (or motorway concessionaires, for that matter) that accept my card.

How about debit cards? Are the fees that you'd pay for them as bad as the fees that you'd pay for just taking money out of a cash machine and subsequently paying that money for your ride on a toll road?
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Old December 7th, 2011, 10:01 AM   #3018
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post

How about debit cards? Are the fees that you'd pay for them as bad as the fees that you'd pay for just taking money out of a cash machine and subsequently paying that money for your ride on a toll road?
Usually paying with debit cards in Italy is free, while withdrawing money from an ATM is free only from your bank machines... If you withdraw from other banks machines you can pay up to 3€ more.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 10:39 AM   #3019
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Wow really? I can get money from any ATM in the entire eurozone without any charge.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 10:39 AM   #3020
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
If you withdraw from other banks machines you can pay up to 3€ more.
Doesn't exist the rule for all euro-banks that the to provision for withdrawing cash anywhere in eurozone is 42 cent max?

Back to the tolls:
There is also a Viacard but if I'm going into France and back I need at least 2 of those. And I heard there are often problems with magnetic tape on the card which holds the credit.

Freeflow microwave-based toll would be excellent thing for Italian motorways and expressways. Many junctions could be simplified and a lot of extra space would be returned when reconstruction now some very complicated junctions would be done.
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