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Old December 7th, 2011, 11:05 AM   #3021
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The complicated junctions are cool IMO, especially because they mean it is impossible to build more of then in heavily urbanized areas, keeping the highways from becoming thoroughfares for local traffic (as it happens here in The Netherlands, for instance).
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Old December 7th, 2011, 11:06 AM   #3022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Doesn't exist the rule for all euro-banks that the to provision for withdrawing cash anywhere in eurozone is 42 cent max?
I know for sure that, at least up to 5 years ago, I used to spend 2.75€ if I withdrew from another bank...
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Old December 7th, 2011, 02:27 PM   #3023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Italian motorway tolls are among the cheapest of western / southern Europe. Only some mountain stretches approach the French or Spanish tolls.
Really?
In a month, just driving around Milan, I spend many times more than driving a whole year on the whole Swiss highways network.
Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
[...]
even if I think that a heavy motorway user in countries like France or Italy at the end of the year pays way too much.
[...]
Just driving around Milan I spend about 100-200€ a month. Just for moving around in a radius of 40 kms from Milan.

But I also drive often on medium-long distances... and all of those must be added to the monthly 100-200€ I already spend just for driving around Milan.


I read on Wikipedia that:
-in Austria a whole year costs 76,20€;
-in Bulgaria a whole year costs 666,20€;
-in Czech Republic a whole year costs 47,40€;
-in Romania a whole year costs 28€;
-in Slovakia a whole year costs 50€;
-in Slovenia a whole year costs 95€;
-in Switzerland a whole year (and more... 14 months!!) costs 32,21€;
-in Hungary a whole year costs 122,76€.

In Italy I pay the same amount of all those vignettes together just driving around Milan for 6 months.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 02:30 PM   #3024
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You are seriously comparing vignettes with distance-based tolls?
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Old December 7th, 2011, 02:45 PM   #3025
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I'm just comparing what I spend in Italy and what would I spend doing the same in another country.
Doesn't matter if I have to buy a vignette or pay every time at toll barriers. At the end of the year I SPENT WAY MORE than a Swiss colleague.
So I think I could sincerely say that "NO, Italian highways are not among the cheapest in Europe".


But I am a frequent user... Let's calculate how much would an occasional user spend. From Milan to Fano, where my parents live, there are about 366,10 km to be driven on highways (source www.autostrade.it). No alpine pass, no tolled bridge, no EXTRAS.

So this trip, one way, would cost 23,20€. 46,40€ for a round trip.
Way more than a whole year on Swiss highways. Just for a single medium-range trip in Italy.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 02:48 PM   #3026
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You're comparing apples and oranges. Vignettes are a whole different finance model than distance-based toll roads. You should compare similar systems.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 02:49 PM   #3027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauz® View Post
I'm just comparing what I spend in Italy and what would I spend doing the same in another country.
Doesn't matter if I have to buy a vignette or pay every time at toll barriers. At the end of the year I SPENT WAY MORE than a Swiss colleague.
So I think I could sincerely say that "NO, Italian highways are not among the cheapest in Europe".
Vignettes are NOT tolls. Switzerland, Austria, Hungary don't finance all (or even most) of their highways with the vignette income, while in Italy, France and Spain the tolled highways have to be paid by tolls only (with very few exceptions).

It is naive to compare costs of tolls/vignettes in countries that finance their highways in very, very different ways and from different sources.

In Italy, tolls are even subject to VAT, for instance. And the concessionaires must raise bonds relying only on toll income! Totally different situation than that of CH or A.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 02:55 PM   #3028
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Comparing MY money VS the money of a Swiss colleague it's not apple vs oranges. Different ways to pay, but at the end of the year also WAY DIFFERENT AMOUNTS PAYED!

It's money going out of my pockets VS money going out of a Swiss pocket.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 03:08 PM   #3029
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It's money going out of my pockets VS money going out of a Swiss pocket.
You still miss the point.

For a meaningful comparison, you'd need to compare taxes, how much of taxes you pay go to highway maintenance/construction vs. in Switzerland, how much is fuel taxes and whether the fuel taxes are earmarked for roads, whether local taxes on property are used indirectly for highways or not etc.

Otherwise, it is just pointless.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 03:10 PM   #3030
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However, the final user does not really care if the systems are similar or not. The final user only cares how much he's going to pay, and he's right, imho.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 03:18 PM   #3031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
You still miss the point.

For a meaningful comparison, you'd need to compare taxes, how much of taxes you pay go to highway maintenance/construction vs. in Switzerland, how much is fuel taxes and whether the fuel taxes are earmarked for roads, whether local taxes on property are used indirectly for highways or not etc.

Otherwise, it is just pointless.
Whatever the pricing method, with tolls the financial burder for a heavy user is going to be much higher compared to vignettes.
Which is just right imho, but it is also right to point out that with a vignette system they would spend less.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 03:23 PM   #3032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
However, the final user does not really care if the systems are similar or not. The final user only cares how much he's going to pay, and he's right, imho.
But if the user doesn't pay in the form of tolls, he'll pay in the form of fuel taxes, or income taxes, or very high excise taxes on car (like in Scandinavia and Netherlands), or annual registration fees... One must be very naive to ignore these costs and look only into the marginal cost of a single trip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
Whatever the pricing method, with tolls the financial burder for a heavy user is going to be much higher compared to vignettes.
Which is just right imho, but it is also right to point out that with a vignette system they will spend less.
Let me try to argue by contradiction: if Italy were to abolish tolls today, one of the following would likely happen:

(1) vignettes would be insanely high priced (on the likes of € 2000/year or more), with much traffic clogging the non-tolled alternative routes and huge disruptions (not likely)

(2) new, specific taxes on fuel would be created to make for the loss of income from tolls (most likely outcome)

(3) overall taxes (or deficit) would be increased as the general budget would have to pay for road maintenance. Goodbye Autostrade per l'Italia standards, welcome ANAS-standards (overgrown vegetation, worn out/broken signs, fainting road marks, no drainage asphalt, dubious paving quality, projects that costs double because they get stopped and restarted over and over again)

Let's remember Austria has some tolls as well, on top of vignettes. And they are not cheap!

The problem is to assume both systems are interchangeable, when they are clearly not!
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Old December 7th, 2011, 03:24 PM   #3033
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
You still miss the point.

For a meaningful comparison, you'd need to compare taxes, how much of taxes you pay go to highway maintenance/construction vs. in Switzerland, how much is fuel taxes and whether the fuel taxes are earmarked for roads, whether local taxes on property are used indirectly for highways or not etc.

Otherwise, it is just pointless.
Without analizing the detailed use of the money by the respective Governments:
-tax burden in Italy is 43,5%;
-tax burden in Switzerland is 29,8%

Cost of a liter of fuel (in February):
-1,461€ in Italy (now 1,646€);
-1,292€ in Switzerland (in fact Italian people living near the border use/used to buy it in Switzerland).
Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
However, the final user does not really care if the systems are similar or not. The final user only cares how much he's going to pay, and he's right, imho.
Yes, this is the point I was trying to explain!
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Old December 7th, 2011, 03:30 PM   #3034
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Then, we are not talking more of roads, but whole fiscal policy of the country, public services, debt, etc. etc. And within this framework, whether we have tolls or vignettes is irrelevant.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 04:04 PM   #3035
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It was just to explain that here we pay also A LOT OF taxes and also high prices for fuel, so probably there are also more funds destined to the highway network.

So: high prices for driving on highways, high tax burden, high fuel prices.
I think there are many chances for Italian highways to be WAY MORE EXPANSIVE than Swiss ones (b.e.).
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Old December 7th, 2011, 04:28 PM   #3036
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In Italy, for save money, many people (including myself) use to take national roads instead of motorways for short distances (less then 50km); often it take only 10-15 minutes more but save some €s. Obviously in countries were motorways are free (Germany, Netherlands, Belgium,...) or use a yearly vignette (Austria, Switzerland, Slovenia,...) people take motorways even for short distance, because are faster and the cost is the same. And that results in less traffic trough villages.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 11:26 PM   #3037
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The complicated junctions are cool IMO, especially because they mean it is impossible to build more of then in heavily urbanized areas, keeping the highways from becoming thoroughfares for local traffic (as it happens here in The Netherlands, for instance).
Extra pollution from extra driving, extra unusable space, extra lost time, this is not cool. Add 0,10 € of toll per every exit and you will cover all the extra gasoline spent there.
It is illogical to have efficient main traffic trunks with very inefficient connections onto.
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Old December 8th, 2011, 02:07 PM   #3038
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New fuel tax:

+ € 0,11 per litre
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Old December 8th, 2011, 05:58 PM   #3039
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Actually in Italy we have the most expansive fuel in the EU. This "professor" which introduced these excises should know (if he ever did a refill in his life) that now you're going to spend 13 € more for fill up the tank. Which will be increased much more when VAT will pass from 21% to 23%. He pretends to save this country, but imho like this people will use the car always less, especially when: insurances are the most expansive in Europe, over 40% most expansive than the avarage in Europe (http://www.oggi.it/attualita/consumi...-care-deuropa/), car taxes, toll roads, insane fine tickets and so on... and using less the car without valid alternatives, will create a crisis into several sectors like tourism (people will go less out for holiday/week-ends) and automotive (using less a car, you don't need to change it more often). To use less a car however could be usefull for to reduce traffic and pollution making people to take public transports, but they rised up ticket prices too instead to incentivate to take them... in conclusion, who has to pay is always the citizen which in the end has the empty wallet...and with empty wallet, economy doesn't move...
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Old December 8th, 2011, 07:44 PM   #3040
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Quote:
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Actually in Italy we have the most expansive fuel in the EU. This "professor" which introduced these excises should know (if he ever did a refill in his life) that now you're going to spend 13 € more for fill up the tank. Which will be increased much more when VAT will pass from 21% to 23%. He pretends to save this country, but imho like this people will use the car always less, especially when: insurances are the most expansive in Europe, over 40% most expansive than the avarage in Europe (http://www.oggi.it/attualita/consumi...-care-deuropa/), car taxes, toll roads, insane fine tickets and so on... .
I agree with some of your complaints, but:

insurance - is directly related to the high incidence of car theft and collisions in urban roads in Italy

traffic fines - obey the law, and nobody has to pay fines.
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