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Old December 8th, 2011, 08:35 PM   #3041
Satyricon84
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to get a fine can happen even if you obey the law. In 10 years I've got the drive license I took 3 fines, two in Italy and one in Germany. In Germany for speed (67 Km/h on 50 Km/h outside the town, 25 € - here would be over 100 € and points) in Italy two for limited traffic zone (72 € + shipping costs). There's something wrong in my opinion but it's not a news that automotive sector is gainful for local administrations thanks to fines. But the main problem is that there's not equity in these fines. A rich driver don't care to pay 38 € of park forbidden, but could be a lot for a normal worker. And in cities like Milan where there's a lack of parking places it could be a problem.... I like the swiss system, where the fine is issued based on the income of the trasgressor. This driver http://www.quattroruote.it/notizie/l...so-di-velocita, got a fine of 200.000€ cause he has a high income.

About insurances: last year insurance costs increased from 10% to 15% while the incidence of car theft and collisions not. Can you tell me why?
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Old December 8th, 2011, 08:45 PM   #3042
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I agree that some fines are excessive and how fines are assessed might be unjust. However, I don't think lack of parking is an excuse to park where it is forbidden, often causing disruptions because Italian urban streets are usually narrow already.
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Old December 8th, 2011, 08:56 PM   #3043
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Do you have to pay a monthly or annual road tax in Italy?
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Old December 8th, 2011, 09:13 PM   #3044
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Do you have to pay a monthly or annual road tax in Italy?
You pay an annual car tax based on the KW of the car. My car has 88KW (120 Hp) and I paied around 220 € in 2011. Next year will be surely more....
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Old December 8th, 2011, 09:17 PM   #3045
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Is there a difference in car tax between diesel and petrol?

In the Netherlands petrol prices are similar to Italy, and you pay around € 30 - 50 per month in road tax. Diesel is cheaper (around € 1,45) but you often pay over € 100 road tax per month.
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Old December 8th, 2011, 09:32 PM   #3046
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Is there a difference in car tax between diesel and petrol?
there WERE similar to Italy. Actually here prices of diesel and petrol are over 1,700 € (almost no difference price between diesel and petrol now). There was since 2005 a difference, diesel cars had to pay an extra tax. But now there's no difference, you just pay according to the power. Actually there's a new tax for which you pay 20€ each KW over 180KW (or 188 I don't remember) your car has. It's something like a luxury tax. Problem is that for example a BMW of 12 years ago with many HP which maybe you bought used for 8000 € is going to pay more than a new Porsche Cayenne diesel which has less 180KW and new costs over 60.000€.....
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Old December 8th, 2011, 09:55 PM   #3047
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About fuel prices, in Italy there are a lot of exices on the liter price:

0.001 € for the Ethiopia war in 1935 (sooner or later we will win the war....)
0.007 € for the Suez crisis in 1957
0.005 € for the Vajont disaster in 1963 (engeneers, politicians and constructors made the mistake, we all pay for it....)
0.005 € for the Florence's flood in 1966
0.005 € for the Belice's earthquake in 1968
0.051 € for the Friuli's earthquake in 1976
0.039 € for the Irpinia's earthquake in 1980
0.106 € for the mission in Liban in 1983
0.011 € for the mission in Bosnia in 1996
0.020 € for the renovament of public transport worker's workcontract in 2004
0.005 € for to buy ecological buses in 2005 (where they are???)
0.007 € for the cultural funding in 2011
0.040 € for the Lybia's crisis in 2011
0.008 € for the Liguria's flood in 2011
0.10 for petrol and 0.13 for diesel for to "save Italy" from the actually euro crisis in 2011 (but who will save us citizens from politicians? )

plus a tax of 0.62 for petrol and 0,48 for fuel fabrication. Plus a VAT on exices of 21% (around 0.26). And then there are regional taxes on fuels....


Last edited by Satyricon84; December 8th, 2011 at 10:05 PM.
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Old December 8th, 2011, 11:07 PM   #3048
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Are gas prices in Italy on the €1.70s??? If I where Italian, I would sell my car and I would start going by bicycle even if I have to go from Milan to Naples.
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Old December 8th, 2011, 11:12 PM   #3049
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Not everyone lives on parents' allowance

Such prices have not caused any reduction in traffic in the Netherlands.
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Old December 8th, 2011, 11:39 PM   #3050
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Quote:
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If I where Italian, I would sell my car and I would start going by bicycle even if I have to go from Milan to Naples.
...or like I'll do, to leave Italy and emigrate as soon as possible :-D However this is just the point of the iceberg, soon VAT will be increased from 21% to 23%, this will increases fuel prieces too. And in some places, for example Ischia is already over 1.80 € ...
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Old December 8th, 2011, 11:57 PM   #3051
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Such prices have not caused any reduction in traffic in the Netherlands.
Unfortunately Italy is not the Netherlands. The avarage salary in the Netherlands is higher than here and about taxes the percentage is more or less the same so in the end of the month there's more money in dutch pockets. In additional here highways are tolled and like I said before, we have the not enviable record of the most expansive insurance in Europe. So, many people already left the car for alternatives solutions included me..... actually my car is parked in the garage most of the time and I use just for necessity, while until few time ago I used to drive also for fun around in the towns I miss that times....
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Old December 9th, 2011, 12:57 AM   #3052
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...or like I'll do, to leave Italy and emigrate as soon as possible :-D However this is just the point of the iceberg, soon VAT will be increased from 21% to 23%, this will increases fuel prieces too. And in some places, for example Ischia is already over 1.80 € ...
And it was already incrased from 20% to 21% back in September.
About fuel: I save up to 8-10 euros going to refuel in Slovenia, but however is not a privilege for everybody.

With new Monti's government we need more extra taxes to repair damages made by the previous government: they will also increase retirement age and introduce a tax for expensive dogs. We are in this situation because decades of mismanagement and waste of public money. Until the 80s was legal retire after only 15 (fifteen!) years of service because 'they want to create new worplaces free for younger people'. And we are still maintaining those people who retired so young. Not to mention waste of public money (public structures started and not compleded because someone had interests on them), overpaid members of parliaments (they also receive huge retirement wages for their whole life even if they spent only few years at the parliament), rich people who evede taxes,... Hoping that Monti will do a good job otherwise we will found ourselves in the same situation of Greece.

Last edited by italystf; December 9th, 2011 at 01:08 AM.
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Old December 9th, 2011, 01:05 AM   #3053
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I see that my France skiing in January just got 25 € more expensive in fuel than in last year. What about the tolls, will they stay the same for the moment?
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Old December 9th, 2011, 02:03 AM   #3054
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Hoping that Monti will do a good job otherwise we will found ourselves in the same situation of Greece.
What Monti does, is just to postpone the completely failure of this system. Everyday here factories close or move the production in Eastern countries or in Asia, unemployment rises up and increasing the retirment age doesn't help to create new workplaces. Prices and taxes rises up but the salary not. How long a country can survive with these conditions? The democracy is dead and now market rules, the governments are only puppets moved by banks. The Euro was a mistake cause was introduced in hurry to contrast emerging markets like China and India but was introduced without a common policy and few countries got benefit from this...
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Old December 9th, 2011, 02:09 AM   #3055
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What about the tolls, will they stay the same for the moment?
Increasing VAT, you increase everything. In 2011 italian tolls are increased around 7% (despite of a prevision in 2010 for the 2011 around 3%). In 2012 we expect a further increase...
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Old December 9th, 2011, 09:28 AM   #3056
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few countries got benefit from this...
Italy was one of the most benefited countries because the old lira was an unstable currency, often subject to market corners, and Italian bonds used to cost (interest rate) more than they did for 11 years of Euro (until late 2010).

So Italy got a boon of low interest rates on its high debt for a decade, it could have used it to promote some reforms or changes, but it didn't.

The Euro has nothing to do with factories moving to Asia. The US, UK, Sweden, Norway... all these countries also face the same issue. Wages in Asia are just too low and regulations too lax.

To close the off-topic discussion, the idea of anticipating retirement to create more work positions for the young is idiotic anywhere in the World. A pension system must be stable, which means you can't have people retiring and living off pensions for 30 years after working just 20. If one is to ask me, the deferential, ageist corporate culture, in which you are not worth much despite of your results until you get past age 35-40 and in which "time on the job" is the single most important factor to judge promotions and managerial nominations are much more serious issues.
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Old December 9th, 2011, 12:20 PM   #3057
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Italy was one of the most benefited countries
I don't agree at all with this statement but I respect your opinion
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Old December 9th, 2011, 02:21 PM   #3058
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[...]

traffic fines - obey the law, and nobody has to pay fines.
Theorically you're right!

But reality is way different.
There are a lot of small municipalities using fines just to earn more cash. On freeways ("Superstrade") or common roads it's full of "traps" put by municipalities in order just to earn money.

There are totally silly speed limits and cameras in correspondance of many traffic lights. Traffic lights that obviously have a very short timing for the "yellow light", so often you see the green light when you're approaching the crossing and don't care about slowing down, but then the traffic light turns yellow when you're just few metres from it and cannot stop in time. And finally it turns red when you're just passing and consequentially you're spotted by the camera.
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Old December 9th, 2011, 03:21 PM   #3059
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There are totally silly speed limits and cameras in correspondance of many traffic lights. Traffic lights that obviously have a very short timing for the "yellow light", so often you see the green light when you're approaching the crossing and don't care about slowing down, but then the traffic light turns yellow when you're just few metres from it and cannot stop in time. And finally it turns red when you're just passing and consequentially you're spotted by the camera.
There was a scandal 2-3 years ago: some Italian municipalities used counterfeit traffic lights were the yellow lasted only 1-2 seconds and they put cameras to catch people passing with red lights. But even people who crossed the intersection with green light could be fined because when they reached the end of the intersection it was already red! It emarged that part of the money earned with fines were given as bribe from those municipalities to the company that made counterfeit traffic lights.
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Old December 9th, 2011, 03:26 PM   #3060
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Theorically you're right!

But reality is way different.
There are a lot of small municipalities using fines just to earn more cash. On freeways ("Superstrade") or common roads it's full of "traps" put by municipalities in order just to earn money.

There are totally silly speed limits and cameras in correspondance of many traffic lights. Traffic lights that obviously have a very short timing for the "yellow light", so often you see the green light when you're approaching the crossing and don't care about slowing down, but then the traffic light turns yellow when you're just few metres from it and cannot stop in time. And finally it turns red when you're just passing and consequentially you're spotted by the camera.
Right! The street code says that approaching a traffic light turning into yellow color, you have to stop only if there are security conditions to stop the vehicle without creating an accident. Too many times there aren't distance security between two cars and slow down suddenly could be dangerous, but the camera spots you passing with red, not that you couldn't avoid it because you were followed by a too close car. And you get an expansive fine (how much is it? should be 150 € and 6 points - 12 if newdriver) for the blame of somebody else which didn't respect the law.... a friend of mine got a fine just cause at the traffic light, the car overtook the stop line of around 30 cm... naturally he went to the polizia municipale to complain, saying "look at the pics, you see that the wheels are stopped!" and the answer was "it doesn't matter"... In some municipalities like Segrate and many other, which isn't properly small, the T-red cameras and autovelox were altered just for to get fines... for that story some people were arrested (http://affaritaliani.libero.it/milan...ed_270410.html)

EDIT: Italystf has been faster to write about that story!
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