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Old January 10th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #3101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I know. I was referring mostly to fuel increase. And there should be a national law about tolls (max €0,0x per km)
Correct. But I suppose there are EXCEPTION for some Autostrada, like for example "mountain autostrada" like "A5" & "A32" ....this could be the reason why the toll increased more then Autostrade per l'italia and other managing private authority
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Old January 10th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #3102
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Originally Posted by legolego View Post
Autostrade per l'Italia is "subjected" to ANAS ..and ANAS is "subjected" to Ministero dei Trasporti.
ApI is not subjected to ANAS in any way. It is owned 100% by Atlantia SpA, whose principal stock holder is the Benetton family.
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Old January 10th, 2012, 12:50 PM   #3103
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Autostrade per l'Italia is "subjected" to ANAS ..and ANAS is "subjected" to Ministero dei Trasporti.

Here the reason and the calculation for the toll increase (in italian language):

http://www.autostrade.it/faq.html#3
Here is the reason why for "short" autostrada the % increase amount is higher than the "long" autostrada. Is also for the rounding off of the toll.
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Old January 10th, 2012, 12:52 PM   #3104
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They show that our motorway are the cheapest in Europe. But they don't say that in most of Europe motorway are free of charge or you have to pay a fix amount that is obviously more convenient for residents. And some countries like Greece, Croatia and Serbia that use the closed toll system aren't mentioned for "mysterious reasons" .
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Old January 10th, 2012, 12:57 PM   #3105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
ApI is not subjected to ANAS in any way. It is owned 100% by Atlantia SpA, whose principal stock holder is the Benetton family.

From the FAQ www.autostrade.it:

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3. Come viene determinato l'aumento dei pedaggi autostradali?
L'aumento dei pedaggi autostradali è funzione dell'adeguamento annuale della tariffa unitaria sulla base di una % di incremento determinata secondo la formula di "price cap" e approvata dall'ANAS.
La nuova tariffa unitaria (maggiorata del sovrapprezzo a beneficio esclusivo di Anas) moltiplicata per i Km percorsi, determina, dopo aver aggiunto l'IVA ed applicato l'arrotondamento (per eccesso o per difetto) ai 10 Centesimi di euro, il nuovo pedaggio.

La formula per la variazione della tariffa unitaria è la seguente

dove

è la variazione della tariffa unitaria

è il tasso di inflazione programmata, indicato ogni anno dal Governo nel Dpeff

X è l'indicatore di produttività che risulta dalla somma di tre fattori: l'obiettivo di recupero di produttività (legato alla variazione del traffico, dei costi e della redditività), il recupero del differenziale tra inflazione programmata e inflazione effettiva ed il fattore relativo alla realizzazione degli investimenti programmati

è un parametro connesso alla qualità del servizio (qualità delle pavimentazioni) ed alla sicurezza (tasso di incidentalità), i cui valori sono puntualmente rilevati e verificati dall'ANAS.
I used "subjected to", not "owned by". I can't explain the real meaning in english, sorry.
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Old January 10th, 2012, 01:09 PM   #3106
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Another injustice is the so called "pedaggio virtuale" (virtual toll). The A28 isn't tolled between Portogruaro and Sacile because it serves also as bypass for Pordenone urban area but when you pass through Portogruaro or Sacile toll plazas (both entering or leaving the free section of A28) you will be charged 1€ more for the toll-free section, even if you don't use it.
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Old January 10th, 2012, 01:18 PM   #3107
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Originally Posted by legolego View Post
Concern to Autostrade Per l'Italia (3,51%):
[+1,47%]: inflation
[+1,99%]: investments realized
[+ 0,05%]: future investments

TOT: + 3,51%

In any case, i remember the toll amount could be increased only for this reason:
- adjustment for inflation rate
- investments realized

I' don't know if this law is applicable only for Autostrade per l'Italia.
- and facilities maintenance costs
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Old January 10th, 2012, 01:36 PM   #3108
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In Detail:


raccordo autostradale della Valle d’Aosta (14,17%),
Autovie venete (12,93%)
Società autostrade Valdostane (11,75%),
Tronco A21 (Satap) (9,7%),
Autocamionale della Cisa (8,17%),
Strada dei Parchi (8,06%),
Brescia – Padova (7,45%),
Novara Est – Milano (Satap) (6,8%),
Autostrada Torino – Ivrea (6,66%),
Torino – Novara Est (Satap) (6,32%),
Società Autostrade Ligure Toscana (5,68%),
Autostrade Centro Padane (5,62%),
Barriere di Avigliana (Sitaf) (5,62%),
Autostrade dei Fiori (5,22%),
Barriera di Salbertrand (Sitaf) (5,12%),
Società autostrada Tirrenica (4,82%),
Barriera di Bruere (Sitaf) (4,15%),
Autostrade per l’Italia (3,51%),
Tangenziale di Napoli (3,49%),
Milano – Serravalle (1,85%),
Torino – Savona (1,47%),
Autostrade del Brennero (1,22%)
Autostrade Meridionali (0,31%).
Trying to explain the major toll increase:

Raccordo autostradale della Valle d’Aosta (14,17%); AO-Monte Bianco;[mountain autostrada; high maintenance costs]

Autovie venete (12,93%) [related to the investments for A4 upgrade VE-TS; http://www.autovie.it/cms/data/browse/news/000065.aspx]

Società autostrade Valdostane (11,75%); Quincinetto-AO; [mountain autostrada; high maintenance costs]

Tronco A21 (Satap) (9,7%),
Torino – Novara Est (Satap) (6,32%),
Novara Est – Milano (Satap) (6,8%),
[related to the investments for A4 rebiulding TO-MI and TO-AT]


Autocamionale della Cisa (8,17%), [mountain autostrada; high maintenance costs]

Strada dei Parchi (8,06%), [mountain autostrada; high maintenance costs]

Brescia – Padova (7,45%), [maybe related to the investment costs for A31 Valdastico Sud building in progress]

Autostrada Torino – Ivrea (6,66%), [???]

Società Autostrade Ligure Toscana (5,68%), [???]

Autostrade Centro Padane (5,62%), [???]

Barriere di Avigliana (Sitaf) (5,62%),

Autostrade dei Fiori (5,22%),

Barriera di Salbertrand (Sitaf) (5,12%),

Società autostrada Tirrenica (4,82%), [realted to building costs of Autostrada A12 Civitavecchia-Rosignano]

Barriera di Bruere (Sitaf) (4,15%),

Autostrade per l’Italia (3,51%),
...
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Old January 10th, 2012, 01:42 PM   #3109
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The Italian private toll roads are not free to raise tolls for "greed" or as they deem fit. And that is the case in most of the developed World! I'm yet to come with a toll highway operator with freedom to set fares as they wish (with the exception of tourist roads like Gloßglockner Road in Austria, Passo Rombo etc.)

Fares are specified in a contract signed between the Conceding Power (the Italian State, as per its agencies) and the Concessionaire. As pointed above, tolls can be increased to match up primarily for inflation and new investments. A lot of new projects/works/standards were negotiated after the contracts were first signed in 1996-1999, which means higher tolls when the State doesn't come up with money.

Some features not originally provided for in the contracts that later increased the costs of the highways include noise barriers (now every village wants one) and draining porous asphalt. Also, many interchanges not originally planned to be redone were so - at the cost of higher tolls.

Tunnels were required to be progressively fit with more safety features -> more costs -> higher tolls.

Mountain highways were required to fit them with more variable signs and "intelligent highway" systems to reduce instances of unexpected ice on road, variable adjustments to speed, better drainage etc. All this cost a lot.

In any case, tolls are calculated via a contracted formula, it is not like Autostrade per l'Italia can just raise tolls as it wishes.

A maximum toll per km law would be somehow moot, in the sense that it would make certain investments projects not financially possible with toll fares, requiring the State to chime in with money and thus meaning, directly or indirectly, more taxes.
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Old January 10th, 2012, 02:10 PM   #3110
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The Italian private toll roads are not free to raise tolls for "greed" or as they deem fit. And that is the case in most of the developed World! I'm yet to come with a toll highway operator with freedom to set fares as they wish (with the exception of tourist roads like Gloßglockner Road in Austria, Passo Rombo etc.)
They can because the State let them. Italy does not care about high tolls and prices, there is an office who supposedly watches over prices but in practice it does nothing.
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Old January 10th, 2012, 02:20 PM   #3111
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It does nothing because the owners of the private highway-managing groups are strictly colluded with politicians and other Italian top entrepreneurs/bankers.

"You do me a favour, I do a favour to you."
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Old January 10th, 2012, 04:51 PM   #3112
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They can because the State let them. Italy does not care about high tolls and prices, there is an office who supposedly watches over prices but in practice it does nothing.
But the formula for price increases, except in cases like the CAS (where tolls are low anyway), is known and it has been contracted well before.

We only see the application of such formulae, not ad-hoc price hikes or something.

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It does nothing because the owners of the private highway-managing groups are strictly colluded with politicians and other Italian top entrepreneurs/bankers.

"You do me a favour, I do a favour to you."
This can only be true as long as pushing new projects in exchange for higher tolls but, again, the public gets benefited with excellent highways. I mean: just compare the average private tolled highways with the average ANAS highway (mainly A3 and SS3-bis).
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Old January 10th, 2012, 05:02 PM   #3113
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
[...]
This can only be true as long as pushing new projects in exchange for higher tolls but, again, the public gets benefited with excellent highways. I mean: just compare the average private tolled highways with the average ANAS highway (mainly A3 and SS3-bis).
This would be a normal practice in every normal country, but not in Italy.
Top entrepreneurs in Italy own lot of companies, the interests of politicians are often very far from the interest of the public (I don't want to explain the details, in order not to start a flame in this thread).
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Old January 10th, 2012, 05:24 PM   #3114
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But the formula for price increases, except in cases like the CAS (where tolls are low anyway), is known and it has been contracted well before.

We only see the application of such formulae, not ad-hoc price hikes or something.
+10% or +14% is not a formula, it's sharking.
Some days ago I went from Livorno to Brescia. It used to be 22€, overnight it changed to 28€. 20% increase. Tell me which formula is this.
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Old January 11th, 2012, 10:24 AM   #3115
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It's better to have a proper road with a stupid name than a stupid road with a proper name...

... even if in this case it could even be a stupid road with a stupid name...
It's better to have a proper road with a proper name.

Too difficult?
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Old January 11th, 2012, 10:41 AM   #3116
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In any case, Corda Molle could still be named in a different way: , as user santo2914 says, "A21 racc" was written on overpass signs, and in many cases this does not reflect the real name of the road (for instance on A14dir Ravenna, which is called simply A14 on overpass signs).
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Old January 11th, 2012, 11:49 AM   #3117
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Isn't that because a raccordo, theoretically, is only a spur used to access a major highway?

Of course this notion had been ignored with things such as the GRA in Roma, of all places.

I think the Italian road network is due for extensive re-numbering. A new scheme should be used, based more on the road engineering profile and less on who has administrative jurisdiction over it. A second-best solution would be to have a system with two letter + numbers in which the numbers identify the route per se, and the letters identify design profile (first letter) and jurisdiction (second letter).
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Old January 11th, 2012, 03:32 PM   #3118
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
in many cases this does not reflect the real name of the road (for instance on A14dir Ravenna, which is called simply A14 on overpass signs).
Route number suffixes are indeed often left out on signs. But the opposite approach, adding the suffix "racc" in a situation where there is no "racc" in the road number, would be new. Or so I think. In all likelihood, Corda Molle will be full of signs for the A21 and the A4 (the latter only when driving westbound) and little hint as to its actual number.

Agree that renumbering is well overdue in Italy. But as long as Italians don't seem to care about road numbers, it is unlikely to happen. There is a certain degree of circular reasoning when it comes to numbers in Italy. Numbers are not used because they are poorly signposted, they are poorly signed because nobody likes them, nobody likes them because the numbering system is bad, which justifies that they are poorly signposted etc. At some stage, you either need to completely give up or you need a renumbering...
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Old January 11th, 2012, 04:50 PM   #3119
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It's true, we Italians don't care much about road numbers, we usually think more about destinations. Italy is a not so big country.

But it does not mean our roads don't need a serious renumbering, especially for SS routes. It's utter and complete madness.
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Old January 11th, 2012, 04:57 PM   #3120
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It's true, we Italians don't care much about road numbers, we usually think more about destinations.
Which explains the name-craziness of directional signs on roundabouts or junctions, with sometimes 10, 15 cities named on arrow-shaped signs in blue or green.

Quote:
Italy is a not so big country.
But its mountainous area makes numbering even more important/usefull.
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