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Old February 9th, 2012, 02:10 PM   #3221
Satyricon84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
... that need to be easily readable by anyone while driving fast.
Let's speaking also of those ridiculous integrative panels written very little in which is explained exceptions or timetable of traffic limited zone like this one? Are those easily readable driving fast? I never had problems with bilingual signs nowhere (there are also in other part of Europe, not only in Italy) but with integrative panels, I have...


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Old February 9th, 2012, 02:18 PM   #3222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84

Let's speaking also of those ridiculous integrative panels written very little in which is explained exception sor timetable of traffic limited zone like this one? Are those easily readable driving fast? I never had problems with bilingual signs nowhere (there are also in other part of Europe, not only in Italy) but with integrative panels, I have...
Those integrative panels are indeed horrible and useless, even more annoying to 20 town names on the same pole. But I cannot find an alternative solution if they have to display so much information.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 9th, 2012, 02:20 PM   #3223
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Why we are the only country which needs to display so much informations?
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Old February 9th, 2012, 02:27 PM   #3224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Those integrative panels are indeed horrible and useless, even more annoying to 20 town names on the same pole. But I cannot find an alternative solution if they have to display so much information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
Why we are the only country which needs to display so much informations?
I think the problem is that every town in Italy has its own regulation about limited-access zone and parkings. I think there should be a national rule that everyone is supposed to know.
I don't know how other countries manage this issue.
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Old February 9th, 2012, 02:48 PM   #3225
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This is in Milan, entering the (ex) Ecopass Area (now Area C):






Awful, stupid, useless!
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Old February 9th, 2012, 02:54 PM   #3226
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And dangerous too, if somebody slow down to read it cause may think he can't enter or he'll get a fine
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Old February 9th, 2012, 10:22 PM   #3227
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And Friulan (although almost all of them understand Italian).
they all speak italian as their mothertongue
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Old February 9th, 2012, 10:44 PM   #3228
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Yes and no. For some people Italian may be one of two mother tongues: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diglossia
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Old February 9th, 2012, 10:59 PM   #3229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo
Yes and no. For some people Italian may be one of two mother tongues: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diglossia
This trend is becaming less and less common among young generations, that regard dialects and local languages to a secondary role. In the past many Italians spoken their dialect as the only motherlanguage. In 1861, when Italy became a country, only 20-30% of Italians knew Italian language and about the same percentage could read and write, with huge differences between north and south and cities and countryside. There was the motto: "done Italy, we should do Italians". Even after unification, many people among popular classes didn't recognized themselves as citizen of their new country, while upper classes advocated the unification since 1820s. Sorry for the off-topic.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 9th, 2012, 11:32 PM   #3230
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I'll make a little offtopic, since it regards to italian language as well

The similar confusion was made in Istra (Croatia) when our motorway A9 was finished 2 years ago. First they had put signs in croatian language, which wasn't in accordance with minority rights according to our law. Because of that, they have changed signs and put bilingual ones (in croatian and italian), but only those communities which are bilingual by their statute are written in both languages, others are not. So signs today look ridiculous

First example - a sign few kilometers after Pula/Pola:

Rijeka, Umag and Vodnjan are written in both languages (because they are bilingual), but Pazin isn't. Also, Trieste is written only in italian because foreign cities are written only in their native language (regardless the fact that Trieste/Trst is trilingual according to italian law).
Another thing is size of the panel because of which Umag and Rijeka with their italian names are in one line, while Vodnjan and Dignano are in separate lines. The font is also too narrow

[IMG]http://i42.************/2ahsf2t.jpg[/IMG]

Second example - at exit Baderna. Again, two cities in 3 rows (Umag & Višnjan) and cities on yellow table written differently: Pazin only in croatian, Poreč/Parenzo in both languages, but in 2 rows, while Baderna is written only in croatian even if it's bilingual (Baderna-MonPaderno).



Again, sorry for the OT
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Old February 9th, 2012, 11:39 PM   #3231
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OFF-TOPIC in my family (bear in mind my Italian father emigrated at some point after he married my mother of Spanish origin and we all lived part of our lives in a third country).

Greatgrandparents: didn't speak Italian very well and always communicates in the Veneto dialect.

Grandparents: educated right after WW-2 ended, spoke dialect with Greatgrandpas and Italian between themselves (grandmother is from Liguria hence language barrier lol).

Parents: he's got rudimentary command of Veneto, otherwise only Italian. Mother learnt Italian along the way. Their generation only speak Italian between themselves and many uncles consider the dialect an eccentric thing of their own grandparents.

Our cohort: all but one cousin don't have a clue of dialects. Some have lived all their lives in France and have a funny Italian accent (their own children are growing without learning Italian)

===========o===o=============++++==

Back to roads:

Italy needs URGENTLY a national ZTL regulation like their equivalents in Gemany and Netherlands (for truck only)

We need something like this:

- a sign that conveys a zTL pictogram easily recognizable

- for all access denied on base of pollution, Euro codes (0-5) should be used, end of story.

- BAN the crazy signs like those from Milano that forbids all traffic but then makes exceptions for 90% o the fleet in the fine print. Prohibition should be noted, not otherwise when it comes to ZTLs

- obligate cites to post large well visible gantry signs on all ztl access points

- oblige the use of cameras in all ZTLs to avoid ad-hoc enforcement o rules in small comuni

- oblige the use of flashing lights in ANY ztl entrance to warn motorist

- restrict the time limitations to 2 lines only
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Old February 10th, 2012, 12:53 AM   #3232
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Quote:
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Trieste is written only in italian because foreign cities are written only in their native language (regardless the fact that Trieste/Trst is trilingual according to italian law).
According to Italian law Trieste isn't trilingual but monolingual. Only some suburbs with a consistent Slovenian minority (such Opicina, Padriciano, Trebiciano, Banne, Basovizza and the autonomous municipalities of Duino-Aurisina, Sgonico, Monrupino and San Dorligo della Valle) are bilingual (and not trilingual, anyway).
By the way I remember Trst signed somewhere near Rijeka\Fiume (on the A7 if i remember well). And in Rijeka, countrary on the Istrian western coast, nothing is written in Italian.
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Old February 10th, 2012, 01:13 AM   #3233
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According to Italian law Trieste isn't trilingual but monolingual. Only some suburbs with a consistent Slovenian minority (such Opicina, Padriciano, Trebiciano, Banne, Basovizza and the autonomous municipalities of Duino-Aurisina, Sgonico, Monrupino and San Dorligo della Valle) are bilingual (and not trilingual, anyway).
Ok. I thought Trieste is trilingual (italian, slovenian, croatian language) because I saw a sign signing Pola/Pulj/Pula...

Quote:
By the way I remember Trst signed somewhere near Rijeka\Fiume (on the A7 if i remember well). And in Rijeka, countrary on the Istrian western coast, nothing is written in Italian.
You're right, Rijeka/Fiume on that A9 sign is incorrect, because it is not a bilingual city (only some cities and municipalities/communes in Istria are).
If you saw "Trst" signed, it's an old sign. Today, all of them on motorways are replaced. You can see them only in towns (last one in Pula, in ex-Yu blue color for main roads, signing Trst and Kopar, was removed few years ago after the reconstruction of that road).

End of offtopic
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Old February 10th, 2012, 01:34 AM   #3234
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Ok. I thought Trieste is trilingual (italian, slovenian, croatian language) because I saw a sign signing Pola/Pulj/Pula...
This was written also in Croatian only because Pula is a Croatian city, not because Croatian is spoken there.

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If you saw "Trst" signed, it's an old sign. Today, all of them on motorways are replaced.
Yes, it was in 2008. I didn't know they changed them later.
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Old February 10th, 2012, 03:23 AM   #3235
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Quote:
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I thought Trieste is trilingual (italian, slovenian, croatian language) because I saw a sign signing Pola/Pulj/Pula...
There's a sign for Pula in Italy?

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That's Italian and Resian, right? (Slovenian dialect, although I hardly understand it) Don't tell me they call Slovenia "Buske"!?
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Old February 10th, 2012, 04:34 AM   #3236
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maybe some village there?
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Old February 10th, 2012, 09:57 AM   #3237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
they all speak italian as their mothertongue
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Yes and no. For some people Italian may be one of two mother tongues: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diglossia
My girlfriend's father, from Abruzzo, couldn't speak Italian at all, only dialect. I couldn't understand a word he said, my girlfriend had to translate for me. It took me some time to begin understanding their dialect...
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Old February 10th, 2012, 10:23 AM   #3238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I think the problem is that every town in Italy has its own regulation about limited-access zone and parkings. I think there should be a national rule that everyone is supposed to know.
I don't know how other countries manage this issue.
A few years ago in summer I delivered in Monaco one morning, and had a reload in Bologna the next day. I had plenty of time, and decided to get off the motorway and head into Portofino for a swim in the sea. As you head towards the seaside town, you are bombarded with signs and regulations. Over looked the one where there is a ban for vehicles longer then 6 metres. My van was 7 metres, and the local police greeted me with a 75 euro fine.
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Old February 10th, 2012, 10:28 AM   #3239
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A few years ago in summer I delivered in Monaco one morning, and had a reload in Bologna the next day. I had plenty of time, and decided to get off the motorway and head into Portofino for a swim in the sea. As you head towards the seaside town, you are bombarded with signs and regulations. Over looked the one where there is a ban for vehicles longer then 6 metres. My van was 7 metres, and the local police greeted me with a 75 euro fine.
You should have told the officer to wait just one minute... because you're going to make you van legal

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Old February 10th, 2012, 12:10 PM   #3240
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Actually I speak some Italian (very poor) but these signs with long texts are difficult to understand for me as well. And what about foreigners that don't understand that language at all?
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