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Old February 22nd, 2012, 01:15 PM   #3281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
solution is a link to the A23 at Tolmezzo. Which is useless, to me.
Not only for you. I think better solution would be more town bypasses and base tunnels on high mountain passes. That could be built much sooner than any motorway and would serve for decades before any real need for motorway.
The need for motorways is more or less through existing valleys and not in making new corridors as this would be the case with A23-A27 proposal. Therefore I would rather see A10 (A) - A22 (I) motorway connection to be completed (currently only 4 km).

PS. Why there are no road numbers for Sud Tirol in Google Maps?
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 01:29 PM   #3282
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Therefore I would rather see A10 (A) - A22 (I) motorway connection to be completed (currently only 4 km).
I don't understand which motorway are you talking about. A10 and A22 are very distant from each other.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 01:41 PM   #3283
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I think he means an east-west route via Lienz and Brunico.

It's a fairly easy route to construct, the valleys are wide enough to support a motorway running through it. Tunneling could be done mostly for landscaping instead of physical barriers.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 02:01 PM   #3284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I think he means an east-west route via Lienz and Brunico.

It's a fairly easy route to construct, the valleys are wide enough to support a motorway running through it. Tunneling could be done mostly for landscaping instead of physical barriers.
I completely agree, even if I doubt on its usefulness. However keber wrote about 4 km completion of such motorway, but I don't think it exists at all.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 02:06 PM   #3285
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There is a short spur of A10 near Spittal in Austria, which opened in 1973.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 02:09 PM   #3286
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Didn't know that. Good to know.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 05:36 PM   #3287
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i've got the opinion that the extension of the a27 to a23 is senseless!
there are much more more important projects in italy, which should be realised....
namely a15 nogarole rocca - parma, autostrada cremona - adriatic coast and the northern part of a31!
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 05:54 PM   #3288
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i've got the opinion that the extension of the a27 to a23 is senseless!
there are much more more important projects in italy, which should be realised....
namely a15 nogarole rocca - parma, autostrada cremona - adriatic coast and the northern part of a31!
The fact that those are to be realized does not mean that other projects are valuable too.
I beg to differ on A15-Nogarole rocca. Since the project is also colled TiBre (Thyrrenian - Brenner), and the link with central Europe is key, it makes no sense to join A15 at Nogarole Rocca. The only thing to do would be go straight and connect it to SS450 in Peschiera, and upgrade it to motorway standard all the way to Affi, where it would link directly to A22.
Otherwise you will see a lot of TIRs exiting the motorway near Goito, going through Valeggio sul Mincio end re-entering the superstrada in Peschiera. It's free, and way shorter.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 05:56 PM   #3289
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If (I) A22 - (A) A10 connection was built, a future extension of A27 could be till Dobbiaco joining the new motorway. Joining A27 with A23 here instead is useless, better an A28-A23 connection.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 06:09 PM   #3290
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Unfortunately the main obstacle is Südtirol. They don't want a single new motorway on "their" territory (but we should remind them that the territory is ours, not theirs), let alone 2.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 06:10 PM   #3291
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I don't see the advantage of letting A27 connect to A23 either, it's hardly shorter for through traffic. It's better to keep through traffic on the flatter A23 and A4 than on A27.

What would be the best option to extend A27 further north from Cadore? You can either go west via Cortina d'Ampezzo or east via SS 52. Both routes require significant tunneling to cross the mountain passes which are up to 1.600 meters high at both routes. It's not worth to bore a 10+ km tunnel for the Toblach area alone, so maybe diverting it off SS 52 to B109 in the Sillian area, to connect to the Felbertauern express route. I doubt if it needs to be a full-blown motorway though, I think a 2+1 express route will be "leistungsfähig" as the Germans say. (capable of the needed performance).
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 06:11 PM   #3292
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exactly. A27 should go until Dobbiaco where it should join A10 [A] - A22.

and some expressway Tolmezzo - Cadore would also be nice
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 06:18 PM   #3293
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The best feasable option would be to go through Cortina-Dobbiaco. From there, it would either go west to A22 or east towards the Austrian A10. Obviously, the best of both worlds (but quite unfeasable) would be sticking to the original Venice-Munich plan, i.e from Brunico to Valle Aurina, then a tunnel to the Zillertal. But this is just a dream.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 07:40 PM   #3294
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Connecting A27 and A23 via mountains is useless because Venice - Villach trough that route will be longer than the curren A4 - A23 route. It would be useful connect Pordenone (A28) with Gemona (A23), through a mostly flat area. That route would be shorter and easier to build. It's not clear if they will build it as motorway or expressway ("Pedemontana Friulana").
Off course the A31 - A22 link should be completed because it's extremely important for traffic between North East Italy and Central Europe, but it would be difficult because of NIMBY opposition in Trentino and also a 10km tunnel would be required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
There is a short spur of A10 near Spittal in Austria, which opened in 1973.
Wow, I never heard of that plan to connect I and A. And I sometimes wonder the reason of that short motorway near Spittal.

Last edited by italystf; February 22nd, 2012 at 07:49 PM.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 07:51 PM   #3295
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What would be the best option to extend A27 further north from Cadore?
The Cimabanche/Sorabances/Gemärk Pass (Cortina-Toblach) is very good and don't really need a tunnel in my opinion. If the A27 has to be lengthened but cannot reach Tirol (north or south it's the same), then I think some improvements on the existing roads would be better value for money (like a bypass Perarolo A27-Venas SS 51).
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 07:55 PM   #3296
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If deemed of national interest, a highway should be built regardless of local NIMBY people thinking they are living in pre-1861 Italy, or better yet, on the late medieval period. People living in valleys in mountainous areas must cope with the fact their valleys are natural communication arteries and have been since Roman times.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 08:00 PM   #3297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
It would be useful connect Pordenone (A28) with Gemona (A23), through a mostly flat area. That route would be shorter and easier to build. It's not clear if they will build it as motorway or expressway ("Pedemontana Friulana").
Would that motorway/expressway really be necessary?
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 08:03 PM   #3298
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If deemed of national interest, a highway should be built regardless of local NIMBY people thinking they are living in pre-1861 Italy, or better yet, on the late medieval period. People living in valleys in mountainous areas must cope with the fact their valleys are natural communication arteries and have been since Roman times.

Unfortunately it does not work that way with Südtirol. We basically surrendered to them in the early '70, because of the bombing and the killing they made, and now they can do whatever they want, even canceling Italian toponyms (which often are older than the German ones), even blocking projects of national interests.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 08:28 PM   #3299
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The Cimabanche/Sorabances/Gemärk Pass (Cortina-Toblach) is very good and don't really need a tunnel in my opinion. If the A27 has to be lengthened but cannot reach Tirol (north or south it's the same), then I think some improvements on the existing roads would be better value for money (like a bypass Perarolo A27-Venas SS 51).
True. I was there on a pretty busy summer weekend - yes there is quite a lot of traffic, but a motorway would be really useful only on already proposed extension of A27. Further to Cortina just few 1+1 bypasses are needed and maybe some straightened sections, nothing more.

About A10 (A) - A22 (I) connection:
motorway was really planned in 60 and 70ies, but later idea was abandoned. Now Austrian side is (very) slowly making progress with new bypasses but on Italian side nothing is happening. There is not enough traffic to justify motorway but with new bypasses it is becoming pretty useful connection.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 08:32 PM   #3300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso

Would that motorway/expressway really be necessary?
It will short the route between Verona and Villach (combined with Pedemontana Veneta) and put traffic out the already overcrowded A4. Pedemontana Veneta would be useless without A28 - A23 link. Now Pordenone and Belluno are quite isolated, with no fast connections towards the north.
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