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Old April 3rd, 2012, 10:09 PM   #3441
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speaking about bypasses and tangenziali - Italy has pretty unique system in Europe of bypasses. in most cases transit motorways are completely divided from city bypasses. they just have 2-3 exits as connection with city ringroad.

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Old April 3rd, 2012, 11:13 PM   #3442
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Most cases? I can think about Rome, Bologna, Brescia, Modena, but not Milan, Genoa, Turin, Palermo, Florence.
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Old April 4th, 2012, 12:17 AM   #3443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Most cases? I can think about Rome, Bologna, Brescia, Modena, but not Milan, Genoa, Turin, Palermo, Florence.
Bari and Pescara have similar schemes (though not complete ring roads)
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Old April 4th, 2012, 10:11 AM   #3444
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Bari and Pescara have similar schemes (though not complete ring roads)
But they're not separated from through traffic as x-type intended. Only Rome and Bologna are, considering motorway and motorway-like tangenziali.
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Old April 4th, 2012, 10:13 AM   #3445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Bari and Pescara have similar schemes (though not complete ring roads)
And also Udine, Mestre, Padova, Vicenza, Verona, Brescia and Modena.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old April 4th, 2012, 10:59 AM   #3446
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Apparently only one man at a time works at the internal "circonvallazione" in Rome:
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Old April 4th, 2012, 11:15 AM   #3447
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It's after 5 pm. Otherwise it costs too much to pay all the overtime
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Old April 4th, 2012, 11:17 AM   #3448
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Could some mod move the posts above on the Italian thread?
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old April 4th, 2012, 12:01 PM   #3449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
The nice thing about those medium-scale projects is that one can anticipated completion within a few years time (unless your project passes Guinza of course). On the Quadrilatero, they are making good progress on the expressways in particular, the E78 between Grosseto and Siena is progressing, ditto for the works in Sardegna. ANAS would, indeed, have to complete those projects before embarking on new projects, but after around 2020 there would be room for some new midsize projects.

For what it's worth, by the way, the Quadrilatero is not a full ANAS project. It is operated by a project company. ANAS is a shareholder of the Quadrilatero, but they are joined by regional entities (see their website).
ANAS will have a huge financial burden in the next few years, SS106 in Calabria

Since tolling it is out of the question and the cost is around 6-7 billions likely to spiral to 10-12 I don't think there will be any space left for midsized projects which will not be tolled.
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Old April 4th, 2012, 01:46 PM   #3450
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Quote:
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Most cases? I can think about Rome, Bologna, Brescia, Modena, but not Milan, Genoa, Turin, Palermo, Florence.
Really?

in Milan there shall be soon towards the north or later a full ring of "tangenziali" completely segregated from the bypassing A4. West and East tangenziale instead don't have the sort of long-haul role that A4 has.

In Genoa we shall build soon or later the "gronda" which will effectively replicate the scheme tipical of other italian cities: a local "tangenziale" and a bypass. Of course adapted to the specific situation and geography of Genoa

Palermo is a very sorry tale actually, but the traffic of its prehistoric tangenziale is hardly long-haul

Turin and Florence do not follow the scheme, true.

Let's say that with most "inland" major cities of Italy it's true that the scheme is more or less followed. This is a very efficient way of dividing the long-haul and short-haul traffic
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Old April 4th, 2012, 01:50 PM   #3451
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Quote:
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But they're not separated from through traffic as x-type intended. Only Rome and Bologna are, considering motorway and motorway-like tangenziali.
Yes they are. The circonvallazione of Pescara is completely secluded from long haul traffic (there are 2 semi-rings around Pescara) and the inner (local) semi-ring is connected in 2 points with fast road to the external ring and in a third point it shall soon or later.

Bari is also similar even thought some long-haul traffic do have to make it on the tangenziale (the one directed to Brindisi and Lecce). Otherwise local traffic (from foggia, the inner cities of Bari) and the traffic around Bari are completely separated from the A14
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Old April 4th, 2012, 01:54 PM   #3452
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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Palermo is a very sorry tale actually, but the traffic of its prehistoric tangenziale is hardly long-haul
Just because there is not much west of Palermo to go to. But if you come from Messina and your destination is the Province of Trapani, you must go through Palermo and its infamous "Viale della regione siciliana".

About Genoa and Milan, for the complete separation of through traffic from local traffic, we can talk again in a couple of decades.
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Old April 4th, 2012, 02:09 PM   #3453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza

Just because there is not much west of Palermo to go to. But if you come from Messina and your destination is the Province of Trapani, you must go through Palermo and its infamous "Viale della regione siciliana".
There are even roundabouts and traffic lights on Palermo bypass.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old April 4th, 2012, 05:12 PM   #3454
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If we take things on a greater scale, Mestre also has a completely segregated tangenziale :p

===========================================

I was thinking of Italian cities that could well do with some "sopraelevate" like Genova, e.g., an elevated highway flowing the boundaries of the old inner city and linking it with a major highway.

Catania, Taranto, Ancona look good candidates IMO.
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Old April 4th, 2012, 06:03 PM   #3455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Just because there is not much west of Palermo to go to. But if you come from Messina and your destination is the Province of Trapani, you must go through Palermo and its infamous "Viale della regione siciliana".

About Genoa and Milan, for the complete separation of through traffic from local traffic, we can talk again in a couple of decades.
I meant exactly that there is not much need to bypass Palermo because very few people actually have to bypass it

Genoa is a complicated case, but in the case of Milan in a few years we shall have our complete north tangenziale: it's the Rho-Monza which is already quite a good road excluding 2 roundabouts. After Rho-Monza will be upgraded to autostrada standard (within 2016-2017 probably at the latest) there will be a complete ringroad around Milan and the A4 just passing through

Anyway you saw the list of cities with the scheme below (of course applied to the real ground situation) we were talking is rather long anyway, so you were wrong anyway

Rome, Bologna, Naples, Parma, Reggio, Udine, Mestre, Padova, Vicenza, Verona, Brescia, Modena, Pescara, Bari, Bergamo, Pavia...in a way Trento, Foggia too and surely many more if we start looking hard enough.

[/QUOTE]

Last edited by Eddard Stark; April 4th, 2012 at 06:08 PM.
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Old April 4th, 2012, 06:50 PM   #3456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
I meant exactly that there is not much need to bypass Palermo because very few people actually have to bypass it

Genoa is a complicated case, but in the case of Milan in a few years we shall have our complete north tangenziale: it's the Rho-Monza which is already quite a good road excluding 2 roundabouts. After Rho-Monza will be upgraded to autostrada standard (within 2016-2017 probably at the latest) there will be a complete ringroad around Milan and the A4 just passing through

Anyway you saw the list of cities with the scheme below (of course applied to the real ground situation) we were talking is rather long anyway, so you were wrong anyway

Rome, Bologna, Naples, Parma, Reggio, Udine, Mestre, Padova, Vicenza, Verona, Brescia, Modena, Pescara, Bari, Bergamo, Pavia...in a way Trento, Foggia too and surely many more if we start looking hard enough.

[/QUOTE]

First, I was talking about motorway-classified tangenziali, so only Rome and Bologna comply, the other tangenziali are just expressway or normal roads.
Second, Milan will not be like Rome or Bologna in the future, because going from A1 to A4 will always require to get through the tangenziali. Through traffic and local traffic are NOT separated.

I was not "wrong anyway".
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Old April 4th, 2012, 09:48 PM   #3457
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I would say that there is not an awful lot of through traffic between the A1 and the A4. From the regions along the A4 that are West of Milan, you would go South via the A21 and thus join the A1 at Piacenza. From the regions along the A4 that are East of Milan, you would use the A21 or the A22. In my view, there is only one tangenziale in Milan that has a real through function, namely the Tangenziale Ovest. Not as a connector between the A4 and the A1, but as a connector between the A8/A9 (and notably the Gotthard corridor) and the A1.

The A4 through Milan remains a bit of a difficult story. Ideally, you'd want to use such an urban motorway for local traffic only and deviate through East-West traffic via a ring road that runs well out of town (preferably wider out than the Tangenziale Nord). But since there is a direct A4, nobody is ever going to take that full ring road, so local traffic and through East-West traffic will continue to use that single road called A4.
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Old April 4th, 2012, 10:09 PM   #3458
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Quote:
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I would say that there is not an awful lot of through traffic between the A1 and the A4. From the regions along the A4 that are West of Milan, you would go South via the A21 and thus join the A1 at Piacenza. From the regions along the A4 that are East of Milan, you would use the A21 or the A22. In my view, there is only one tangenziale in Milan that has a real through function, namely the Tangenziale Ovest. Not as a connector between the A4 and the A1, but as a connector between the A8/A9 (and notably the Gotthard corridor) and the A1.

The A4 through Milan remains a bit of a difficult story. Ideally, you'd want to use such an urban motorway for local traffic only and deviate through East-West traffic via a ring road that runs well out of town (preferably wider out than the Tangenziale Nord). But since there is a direct A4, nobody is ever going to take that full ring road, so local traffic and through East-West traffic will continue to use that single road called A4.
very well written, that's what I meant

By the way, once the Rho-Monza will be connected to tangenziale nord on one side and to the tangenziale ovest on the other also the short-haul role of the A4 shall be very much diminuished as most people directed to the city would not use it anymore
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Old April 4th, 2012, 11:07 PM   #3459
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Central Milan is close to the A4, so there will always be a lot of places from which you would take the urban part of the A4 in order to reach Milan. Unless you took the drastical step of eliminating all exits between Viale Certosa and the Tangenziale Est. That would pretty much assure you of an A4 for through traffic only, as urban traffic would be diverted to the tangenziali.

But for the time being, let's wait for Rho - Monza, the Pedemontana and BreBeMi. They should provide useful relief to the A4: not because people living close to the A4 would no longer take the A4 for their commutes to Central Milan, but because it provides quicker routes for two groups of A4-travellers that make up large numbers:
- from places slightly further from the A4 to Central Milan
- from pretty much anywhere to suburban Milan
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Old April 5th, 2012, 04:44 AM   #3460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Apparently only one man at a time works at the internal "circonvallazione" in Rome:
Where is that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
There are even roundabouts and traffic lights on Palermo bypass.
Try to use Google Street View on it.


By the way, does it make sense to avoid the A4 in Milano in rush hours by using the eastern and western bypasses (A51, A50)?
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