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Old July 25th, 2012, 12:58 AM   #3821
Satyricon84
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These pics are old, that viaduct was demolished 2 years ago
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Old July 25th, 2012, 02:16 AM   #3822
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All roads that cross the Apennines in Liguria are interesting. I've driven in all of them

A15 was commented above

A7 is an interesting case: the southbound (Alessandria => Genova) lanes are much more windy and twisting whereas the northbound ones are more straight (they were added later when the road was twinned). In some sectors, the lanes follow in an "inverted" positionl like here, and the southbound lanes have a much lower standard than the northbound ones, with tight curves, passing close to houses etc (it was not originally built as a highway). The partially-underground A7 x A12 stack interchange is very interesting

A26 is the more modern of the 4 links, both carriageways are built next to each other, and the highway has less curves and twists than the others, though a larger share of trucks vs. cars as it provides faster links to logistic areas east of Milano, the Simplon access road etc.

A6 has also very different standards and design for northbound and southbound lanes. Contrary to A7, it was originally built already as a highway (southbound carriageway) with a 1+1+1 freak design whereas the central lane was a passing lane for both directions of travel. It was extremely deadly and some courts ordered the highway closed for several months while they removed the central passing lane, widened both remaining lanes! Northbound lanes were added later with a much straighter design and , and both carriageway diverge from each other often, sometimes running form kms in the "wrong" direction, e.g., southbound lanes on the left, yielding some odd exits/U-turns like this. It has an helix here




===============

My last comment on the language brouhaha off-topic: this whole controversy only exists, paradoxically, because Italians were not so good at repressing languages and culture as some of the European neighbors (I'm not saying they should have been!). Had the Italians done to the German-speaking population of Tirol and A.A. (annexed after their country lost World War I in 1918), what Poland did to the German-speaking population of Upper Silesia and Pomerania after WW-2; or what Yugoslavia did to the Italian minority in Dalmatia (which had been there for 2 centuries) in 1946, e.g., expelling all the minority-speaking population and ethnically cleansing the areas, there would be no controversy to whine about. No one in, say, Dresden whines about how Breslau is governed by an "oppressive" Polish government with no respect for the centuries-old Prussian heritage of the city.

On top of that, Sudtirol province got what is probably the best deal in terms of "special statutes" in Europe: they keep 90% of national Italian taxes collected there, but with that retention they pay only around 50% of the per-capita costs of services delivered by the national government. Awesome deal, craved by fear of communism in the 1970s.

So I think it is extremely unfair to bash the Italian state when the own existence of the minority in the areas reclaimed/gained from Austria in 1918 is due to the less harsh approach the same state took comparing to what happened in pretty much the rest of Central Europe.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 10:23 AM   #3823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist
All roads that cross the Apennines in Liguria are interesting. I've driven in all of them

A15 was commented above

A7 is an interesting case: the southbound (Alessandria => Genova) lanes are much more windy and twisting whereas the northbound ones are more straight (they were added later when the road was twinned). In some sectors, the lanes follow in an "inverted" positionl like here, and the southbound lanes have a much lower standard than the northbound ones, with tight curves, passing close to houses etc (it was not originally built as a highway). The partially-underground A7 x A12 stack interchange is very interesting

A26 is the more modern of the 4 links, both carriageways are built next to each other, and the highway has less curves and twists than the others, though a larger share of trucks vs. cars as it provides faster links to logistic areas east of Milano, the Simplon access road etc.

A6 has also very different standards and design for northbound and southbound lanes. Contrary to A7, it was originally built already as a highway (southbound carriageway) with a 1+1+1 freak design whereas the central lane was a passing lane for both directions of travel. It was extremely deadly and some courts ordered the highway closed for several months while they removed the central passing lane, widened both remaining lanes! Northbound lanes were added later with a much straighter design and , and both carriageway diverge from each other often, sometimes running form kms in the "wrong" direction, e.g., southbound lanes on the left, yielding some odd exits/U-turns like this. It has an helix here

===============

My last comment on the language brouhaha off-topic: this whole controversy only exists, paradoxically, because Italians were not so good at repressing languages and culture as some of the European neighbors (I'm not saying they should have been!). Had the Italians done to the German-speaking population of Tirol and A.A. (annexed after their country lost World War I in 1918), what Poland did to the German-speaking population of Upper Silesia and Pomerania after WW-2; or what Yugoslavia did to the Italian minority in Dalmatia (which had been there for 2 centuries) in 1946, e.g., expelling all the minority-speaking population and ethnically cleansing the areas, there would be no controversy to whine about. No one in, say, Dresden whines about how Breslau is governed by an "oppressive" Polish government with no respect for the centuries-old Prussian heritage of the city.

On top of that, Sudtirol province got what is probably the best deal in terms of "special statutes" in Europe: they keep 90% of national Italian taxes collected there, but with that retention they pay only around 50% of the per-capita costs of services delivered by the national government. Awesome deal, craved by fear of communism in the 1970s.

So I think it is extremely unfair to bash the Italian state when the own existence of the minority in the areas reclaimed/gained from Austria in 1918 is due to the less harsh approach the same state took comparing to what happened in pretty much the rest of Central Europe.
I think the A6 is something unique, with that curves and the two direction following two completely different paths.

About ethnic minorances: in democratic countries should be recognized and protected, almost every European country has some. But Alto Adige is sucking too much money from the Italian state. Those privileges were given after local separatists placed some bombs around and killed Italian cops in the 60s. Now they would never became part of Austria because Austria wouldn't give them such privileges.
Many local politicians still openly support those deadly terrorists, call them patriotic heroes and name streets after them. Isn't it unacceptable in a democratic and civilized state?
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 10:24 AM   #3824
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It is widely known in Italy that Alto Adige retains this level of autonomy just because of the terrorist attacks and bombs they planted in the 60s. One road in Appiano sulla strada del vino (Eppan an der Weinstraße) is dedicated to Sepp Kerschbaumer, leader of the terrorist group Befreiungsausschuss Südtirol. It's like liberated Iraq would dedicate a road to Saddam.

edit: (posted before reading italystf's post, basically saying same things)
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Old July 25th, 2012, 10:31 AM   #3825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza
It's like liberated Iraq would dedicate a road to Saddam.
Or "ulica Marsala Tita" in many cities in the now EU democracies Slovenia and Croatia.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 10:47 AM   #3826
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Is it ever likely to change? I mean, residents are to be given the option of having an Austrian passport as well now. And to me the normal everyday person doesn't appear to be anti-Italian. They all have normal Italian license plates, with the I on the Euroband. Only difference that on the band on the other side of the plate they have the Tirolian eagle as well, like on the numberplates here.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 10:53 AM   #3827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK
Is it ever likely to change? I mean, residents are to be given the option of having an Austrian passport as well now. And to me the normal everyday person doesn't appear to be anti-Italian. They all have normal Italian license plates, with the I on the Euroband. Only difference that on the band on the other side of the plate they have the Tirolian eagle as well, like on the numberplates here.
Also Trento and Aosta have the coat of arm on the right side.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 10:56 AM   #3828
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Here are some pictures of the (first half of) A15, from Liguria to the watershed.

Beginning from A12:




Exit Pontremoli:


This should be the watershed tunnel:


Then I stopped taking pictures because it was too dark.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #3829
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Do you know the liberated Iraq has foreign troops on its soil?

On another topic:
Italian word 'minoranza' is English word 'minority' ('minorance' is not English)
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Old July 25th, 2012, 12:54 PM   #3830
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An interesting question: would be possible to drive this additional loop (extra 210 km) between Alessandria and Cremona using A7-A12-A15 and paying only straight A21 toll rate (about 8-10 €) between both cities:
https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=A...=13&via=1&z=10

Of course that would be done from sightseeing point of view only.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 12:59 PM   #3831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielstan View Post
Do you know the liberated Iraq has foreign troops on its soil?
And that should move Iraqis to hail their former dictator? God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
An interesting question: would be possible to drive this additional loop (extra 210 km) between Alessandria and Cremona using A7-A12-A15 and paying only straight A21 toll rate (about 8-10 €) between both cities:
https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=A...=13&via=1&z=10
Sure you can.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 01:12 PM   #3832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber
An interesting question: would be possible to drive this additional loop (extra 210 km) between Alessandria and Cremona using A7-A12-A15 and paying only straight A21 toll rate (about 8-10 €) between both cities:
https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=A...=13&via=1&z=10

Of course that would be done from sightseeing point of view only.
Yes, you can. They know only where you entered, not the route you took. I wonder what happens if you did an entire circle and you exit where you entered.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 01:24 PM   #3833
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I wondered the same years ago.

I have been on the E33 (Signs are wrong, A15 is E33, not E31 which runs in Germany and the Netherlands). Nice motorway, but at the time I passed there was a World Cup match involving Spain. We lost then (against Switzerland), but eventually we became world champions.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 01:49 PM   #3834
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I think you can travel like this and pay only the Brescia-Verona tolls
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Old July 25th, 2012, 02:01 PM   #3835
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Updates from A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria.

ANAS CEO Pietro Ciucci said in an interview:
"Last July 12th we opened 7 km of new autostrada between exits San Mango and Falerna; today we open 3 km of northbound carriageway in the same stretch; also today we open 5.5 km of new autostrada: 2.5km between Tarsia Nord and Tarsia Sud (with the important Serra Ospedale tunnel), 1 km between Campotenese and Morano and 2 km around the new Firmo exit.

Also today, 24 month after beginning of the works, 10 km of northbound carriageway are opened, between Campotenese and Morano. This is a significative mountain stretch, with 6 new tunnels (2800 m in total) and 14 viaducts (2000 m). Amongst the latter we mention the Caballa viaduct, with a central span of 100 m.

Within July we will open another 12.6 km: 3 km between Lagonegro Nord and Lauria nord on the 27th; 2.7 km between Rosarno and Mileto and 2.8 km of La Motta tunnel. On the 31st we will open the last 4 km between Barritteri tunnel (2500 m) and the new exit Bagnara Sant'Elia Melicuccà".
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Old July 25th, 2012, 02:05 PM   #3836
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And a couple pictures of the new Favazzina viaducts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by legolego View Post
...




[stradeeautostrade.it]
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Old July 25th, 2012, 02:23 PM   #3837
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Or "ulica Marsala Tita" in many cities in the now EU democracies Slovenia and Croatia.
In Slovenia there's a ban of doing this by constitutional court
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Old July 25th, 2012, 03:05 PM   #3838
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My pics of the A10 in the section between Albenga and Ventimiglia








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Old July 25th, 2012, 03:16 PM   #3839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hofburg

In Slovenia there's a ban of doing this by constitutional court
Ironically in Italy we have " Via Josif Broz Tito" in Parma and "Piazza Vladimir Uljanov Lenin" in Cavriago (RE). Relicts from the PCI times.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 03:26 PM   #3840
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I feel a negative conotation on Tito's leadership, even some people claimed Yugoslavia was not a comunist country (or not a country in the soviet block) between 1945 - 1989 (thanks to who?).
I dare to say Tito would have been a bless for communist Romania instead of Ceausescu we had at the time.

Last edited by danielstan; July 25th, 2012 at 03:33 PM.
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