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Old July 25th, 2012, 08:10 PM   #3861
Satyricon84
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Speaking of Tutor, from the 27th of July on some SS (SS1, SS7 and SS309) will be active the new "Vergilius" radar control

http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/canal...html?idPhoto=1



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Old July 25th, 2012, 08:14 PM   #3862
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"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here"
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Old July 25th, 2012, 08:20 PM   #3863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza
"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here"
Phrase really written at the beginning of the famous Zoncolan alpine road, referred to cyclists.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 08:29 PM   #3864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
Speaking of Tutor, from the 27th of July on some SS (SS1, SS7 and SS309) will be active the new "Vergilius" radar control

http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/canal...html?idPhoto=1



Amazing ...

This is a good news for italian roads.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 08:45 PM   #3865
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and bad news for italian wallets....
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Old July 25th, 2012, 08:49 PM   #3866
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Originally Posted by keber View Post
If anyone wishes to do a touristic loop - touristic because I don't see any other sane reason to do a loop without going off the motorway except in case of direct route closure - A22 vs A13 come to my mind - then why not.
With the same logic I shouldn't pay toll if I go to Venice just because I'm a tourist.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 08:53 PM   #3867
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There is no cars on SS309, strange picture
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Old July 25th, 2012, 08:59 PM   #3868
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With the same logic I shouldn't pay toll if I go to Venice just because I'm a tourist.
In Venice you'll pay even for the air you breathe.
In case you go to Venice by car, don't park in Piazzale Roma, it's expensive as hell. Park at Tronchetto island and get to Venice on foot, or by people mover:
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Old July 25th, 2012, 09:05 PM   #3869
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I have always parked at Piazzale Roma. 30 euros for the day and ready to go...
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Old July 25th, 2012, 09:12 PM   #3870
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With the same logic I shouldn't pay toll if I go to Venice just because I'm a tourist.
Actually we all shouldn't pay toll on italian highways since our grandfathers and fathers payed financed them already with taxes they payed for the construction. Then the italian goverment had the brillant idea to give them to Benetton and other private companies, which like all industrialists, he wants to earn something from them... and the absurd thing is that they earn something on State-property things
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Old July 25th, 2012, 09:21 PM   #3871
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
In Venice you'll pay even for the air you breathe.
In case you go to Venice by car, don't park in Piazzale Roma, it's expensive as hell. Park at Tronchetto island and get to Venice on foot, or by people mover:
I park in Terminal Fusina, it costs 10€ for 12 hours and 15€ for 24 hours. Then with the boat you're directly in the Centre, it costs 13€ round trip but at least you can enjoy the view from the sea too
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Old July 25th, 2012, 09:24 PM   #3872
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I think the argument about people doing loops is that it is extremely counter-intuitive and very expensive, so that only a negligible number of people joyriding or the lulz would do such loops. It has nothing to do with "tourists shouldn't pay" .

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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
Actually we all shouldn't pay toll on italian highways since our grandfathers and fathers payed financed them already with taxes they payed for the construction. Then the italian goverment had the brillant idea to give them to Benetton and other private companies, which like all industrialists, he wants to earn something from them... and the absurd thing is that they earn something on State-property things
Your reasoning is only partially right.

The state of the Italian autostrade network in the mid-1990s was quite abysmal with lots of bottlenecks (Bologna and the routes out of Milano being the worst), deferred maintenance, bad facilities, poor signaling and pavement.

The concession program brought more investments, major road widening (just imagine the chaos of Modena-Bologna-Rimini before the upgrades), new technologies etc.

Now compare that to "pure" State highways such as A3, the highways in Sicilia by C.A.S., SS36, among others...

Tolls in Italy are relatively low for the costs of construction/maintenance (remember that 4% of all highway length in Italy are in tunnels!) and challenging new projects such as Variante di Valico, Passante di Mestre, all work done on A1 etc. On a per-km basis, they are lower than in France and most of tolled highways of Spain
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Old July 25th, 2012, 09:31 PM   #3873
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Besides the italian autostrade were built by IRI, a public owned corporation, with financing from the market and banks, not taxes

therefore the toll was put up immediately, because toll was the only way to make this venture viable for a company, even if publicly owned, without pumping state money.

Than this company was sold to a private enterpreneur, with a profit for the italian state that owned IRI
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Old July 25th, 2012, 09:34 PM   #3874
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With the same logic I shouldn't pay toll if I go to Venice just because I'm a tourist.
I don't see logic in that ...

However this will change with the introduction of freeflow tolling which will surely come in next 10 years.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 09:37 PM   #3875
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Tolls in Italy are relatively low for the costs of construction/maintenance (remember that 4% of all highway length in Italy are in tunnels!) and challenging new projects such as Variante di Valico, Passante di Mestre, all work done on A1 etc. On a per-km basis, they are lower than in France and most of tolled highways of Spain
I payed 10,50€ from Albenga to Ventimiglia (80 Km) that is the double of what I pay driving from Monza to Brescia and the same distance. Yes, on the A10 there are a lot of tunnels and as rightly you said, the maintenance costs more. But then I open the newspaper and I read this http://edizioni.lastampa.it/savona/articolo/lstp/13002/ that 152 tunnels from Genova to Ventimiglia should be closed and renovated cause this is what the EU wants. Also I ask myself....for what I payed so high toll if almost all the highway must be renovated for to get security standards? and if I payed so high toll now, how much I'll go to pay after??
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Old July 25th, 2012, 09:47 PM   #3876
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84

I payed 10,50€ from Albenga to Ventimiglia (80 Km) that is the double of what I pay driving from Monza to Brescia and the same distance. Yes, on the A10 there are a lot of tunnels and as rightly you said, the maintenance costs more. But then I open the newspaper and I read this http://edizioni.lastampa.it/savona/articolo/lstp/13002/ that 152 tunnels from Genova to Ventimiglia should be closed and renovated cause this is what the EU wants. Also I ask myself....for what I payed so high toll if almost all the highway must be renovated for to get security standards? and if I payed so high toll now, how much I'll go to pay after??
A10 is one of the most substandard and most dangerous motorway in Italy, undoubtely he need to be upgraded with XXI century standards. Tolls will increase as it's usual in all our network, every 1st January.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 09:54 PM   #3877
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A10 is one of the most substandard and most dangerous motorway in Italy, undoubtely he need to be upgraded with XXI century standards. Tolls will increase as it's usual in all our network, every 1st January.
Tolls shouldn't increase since we already pay too much for a downgraded highway. The south carriageway going to Genova from Savona is still the original of the 1967 when it was doubleway. Also why tolls increased year after year if the highway wasn't upgraded since its construction?
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Old July 25th, 2012, 09:57 PM   #3878
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Inflation + financial cushion for the mega "Passante di Genova" project.

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Old July 25th, 2012, 10:06 PM   #3879
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I'm really curious to see what they will do when they will start to work on the tunnels. Surely, the traffic will be insane with long queues...and in such cases to reduce the toll for an highway in half-service would be the right thing to do. But I doubt really the toll will be reduced...I bet instead will be increased again
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Old July 25th, 2012, 10:18 PM   #3880
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84
I'm really curious to see what they will do when they will start to work on the tunnels. Surely, the traffic will be insane with long queues...and in such cases to reduce the toll for an highway in half-service would be the right thing to do. But I doubt really the toll will be reduced...I bet instead will be increased again
Motorways that will undergone big renovation works need higher tolls than those alredy renovated. Before the completion of the Passante di Mestre, en extra fee was colleced at Mestre's toll booths. Off course commuters complain, but if the alternative is have decades-lasting road works or increase our public debt... People always complain for taxes and fees, but without them we wouldn't be able to enjoy a high standard of life simply because the state can create money from nothing to provide services to us.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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