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Old July 25th, 2012, 10:38 PM   #3881
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
In case you go to Venice by car
I've been to Venice by car (parked in Mestre though), train and ship (in 1980s from Portorož/Portorose).
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Old July 25th, 2012, 10:53 PM   #3882
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Motorways that will undergone big renovation works need higher tolls than those alredy renovated. Before the completion of the Passante di Mestre, en extra fee was colleced at Mestre's toll booths. Off course commuters complain, but if the alternative is have decades-lasting road works or increase our public debt... People always complain for taxes and fees, but without them we wouldn't be able to enjoy a high standard of life simply because the state can create money from nothing to provide services to us.
I would like to have an opinion of a german about this. Cause for me high standard life is what people has in Germany, Great Britain, Austria, Sweden... surely not in Italy where unemployment is 10%, tax pressure at the first place in the world (not a record for which to be proud of), avarage salary 17% below the OCSE country's avarage, fuel price highest in Europe (and we have our oil wells too but we pay more of who has to important totally). The list is much longer than this, but I stop here to don't go too much offtopic.
People always complain for taxes and fees? They are right... for what with pay to the State we should have best services in the world. Instead Salerno-Reggio Calabria is still work in progress, in many parts of the Sicily, they have no water for many days during the year, in Neaples they still don't know how to manage rubbish, in Milan 2 cm of snow is enough to paralize the entire city, etc. etc. etc.....
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Old July 25th, 2012, 11:05 PM   #3883
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http://milano.corriere.it/milano/not...73691759.shtml

An example of what's wrong with Italy. Milan's "area C" - equivalent of London congestion charge - has been suspended by Council of State because the owner of a private parking in the city centre filed a complaint, saying that he has been economically damaged by Area C.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 11:37 PM   #3884
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Area C is a tax, in appearance with the aim to protect the living enviroment but pratically with the aim to fill comune's cash. Nothing more. For first, cause at the moment it puts at the same level a car euro 4/5 with all filters and a 1980 Fiat Ducato diesel for example... then, if the aim was to incentivate people to use public services, you don't increase 50% the ticket price for them. And for last, just moved the most of the traffic from inside the Cerchia dei Bastioni to outside, but pollution doesn't stop at the gates of Area C (PM10 inside the Area is not changed) http://www.automoto.it/eco/area-c-pm...-bastioni.html
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Old July 26th, 2012, 12:15 AM   #3885
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84

I would like to have an opinion of a german about this. Cause for me high standard life is what people has in Germany, Great Britain, Austria, Sweden... surely not in Italy where unemployment is 10%, tax pressure at the first place in the world (not a record for which to be proud of), avarage salary 17% below the OCSE country's avarage, fuel price highest in Europe (and we have our oil wells too but we pay more of who has to important totally). The list is much longer than this, but I stop here to don't go too much offtopic.
People always complain for taxes and fees? They are right... for what with pay to the State we should have best services in the world. Instead Salerno-Reggio Calabria is still work in progress, in many parts of the Sicily, they have no water for many days during the year, in Neaples they still don't know how to manage rubbish, in Milan 2 cm of snow is enough to paralize the entire city, etc. etc. etc.....
That's because we're still very far away from the socialdemocratic model where high taxation means very good services for everybody. A too big part of what we pay ends up in the already full pockets of corrupt politicians.

If our motorways were managed by the state they would be toll free but A3-A19-SS3bis would be the standard for the whole network with all consequences we can imagine: 24-7 congestion, very high accident rates, slower and more expensive road transportation.

However, some countries such D and NL managed to have excellent toll free motorways. It's obvious that things here work differently.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 12:27 AM   #3886
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However, some countries such D and NL managed to have excellent toll free motorways. It's obvious that things here work differently.
Until 10 years ago or so, these countries had much higher fuel taxes and vehicle registration taxes. They had higher per capita income and a much, much, much easier territory to build and maintain their network.

Italy, alone, has more long viaducts (> 1000m) and tunnels (any size) on its highway network than the rest of Western Europe combined. And the cherry on the cake is a huge seismic active fault line crossing the country...
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Old July 26th, 2012, 12:35 AM   #3887
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An example of what's wrong with Italy. Milan's "area C" - equivalent of London congestion charge - has been suspended by Council of State because the owner of a private parking in the city centre filed a complaint, saying that he has been economically damaged by Area C.
That is good.

Ecopass and Area C are all disguised taxes that Milano municipality imposes on commuters. It's a money grab.

If they were serious about reducing pollution, they would outlaw lower Euro-standard cars, regardless of place of registration or residence of the driver. An old 1980s Panda pollutes the same, regardless if its driver lives in Via Torino, in Monza or in Switzerland.

I hope the sentence stays there.

It must be noticed that the Milano municipality had commissioned various new PPP parking lots (underground) around the ZTL area first road ring (the old Medieval walls) to incentive people to use trams and walk from there on. Now they slapped this €5/day fee.

I have some friends that work at Bocconi University and they were outraged by having to pay more than € 100 per month to reach the relatively brand-new faculty parking lot the university had built for them!

Actually, I wish the national government passed some uniforming law regarding ZTLs and environmental zones valid for the whole country. For instance: give the local authorities the power to ban certain Euro-standard based cars, but in a way that obliges the ban to be universal, without exceptions for residents or else.

Also, ZTLs should come in only 1 format of permanently restricted areas with overhead signs and clearly marked "escape routes" on ANY legal entrance to them. Then, if a city wants "dynamic ZTL"s, they should finance VMPs in every single entrance to the ZTLs.

As they are now, it is a joke to assume any driver can SAFELY read the restrictions of a ZTL before deciding in a split-second whether he/she can enter a zone or not, if they are new to the area and never drove there before.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 12:53 AM   #3888
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I think either name will do fine, as both are official city names like Brennero, Merano, Trento, Bolzano etc.

It is the same case with Swiss cities, either Visp or Viège, Biel or Bienne, Müster or Disentis will do the job.

Specifically, sud-tyrol is not a German-language area, it is a bi-lingual area like Bruxelles-Brussel and thus EITHER language is fine. Let's not foster anti-Italianism here... It's like the Passo Rombo / Timmelsjöch controversy... useless...
"Bruxelles-Brussel" has a perfectly good English name, which English-speaking people have been using for centuries....
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Old July 26th, 2012, 12:56 AM   #3889
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In Switzerland if there is a translation of the name in the language of the text, then it's this that is used (so, Geneva in a text written in English, and so on, Genève in a French text, Genf/German and Ginevra/Italian). If the city doesn't have a name in that language, then the local name is used (so, Neuchâtel in French and English texts, but Neuenburg in German ones).

In the case of the bilingual city of Biel-Bienne then often both names are used (with the main language first) - and that could be a way for Bolzano-Bozen.
I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect people to systematically use two names for a city that has two official names. (For starters, many people may not know both.) Surely, you could use either one and if anyone has a problem with it, the problem is theirs....
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Old July 26th, 2012, 12:57 AM   #3890
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It doesn't matter how people feel, but whose national state give them passports, health care, education, an ID
Does that state recognize both names?
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Old July 26th, 2012, 01:02 AM   #3891
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....Sounds crazy? Well, France still do that with English words.
Eh, these days, French is chock-full of English words. Usually mispronounced....
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Old July 26th, 2012, 01:08 AM   #3892
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist

That is good.

Ecopass and Area C are all disguised taxes that Milano municipality imposes on commuters. It's a money grab.

If they were serious about reducing pollution, they would outlaw lower Euro-standard cars, regardless of place of registration or residence of the driver. An old 1980s Panda pollutes the same, regardless if its driver lives in Via Torino, in Monza or in Switzerland.

I hope the sentence stays there.

It must be noticed that the Milano municipality had commissioned various new PPP parking lots (underground) around the ZTL area first road ring (the old Medieval walls) to incentive people to use trams and walk from there on. Now they slapped this €5/day fee.

I have some friends that work at Bocconi University and they were outraged by having to pay more than € 100 per month to reach the relatively brand-new faculty parking lot the university had built for them!

Actually, I wish the national government passed some uniforming law regarding ZTLs and environmental zones valid for the whole country. For instance: give the local authorities the power to ban certain Euro-standard based cars, but in a way that obliges the ban to be universal, without exceptions for residents or else.

Also, ZTLs should come in only 1 format of permanently restricted areas with overhead signs and clearly marked "escape routes" on ANY legal entrance to them. Then, if a city wants "dynamic ZTL"s, they should finance VMPs in every single entrance to the ZTLs.

As they are now, it is a joke to assume any driver can SAFELY read the restrictions of a ZTL before deciding in a split-second whether he/she can enter a zone or not, if they are new to the area and never drove there before.
Spinoza wasn't saying that abolition of the restriction in c zone was bad, but it's bad that a private citizen has the power to change a regulation for their own interests.

I think that the ownership of old polluting vehicles should be heavily taxed, while those who have Euro 4 or more should pay much less taxes than what they're currently paying.
Off course classic cars amateurs would start complain.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 01:09 AM   #3893
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods

Does that state recognize both names?
Yes.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 01:13 AM   #3894
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Caught up now on the last ten pages. :-)
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Old July 26th, 2012, 02:12 AM   #3895
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That's because we're still very far away from the socialdemocratic model where high taxation means very good services for everybody. A too big part of what we pay ends up in the already full pockets of corrupt politicians.
So we are very far than to be a country with high standards of life if we are governed by corrupted politicians (that control the freedom of the press too, being Italy a state partially free, behind Namibia and at the same level of Guyana according with Freedom House) and we can't count on the efficiency of the State.

Quote:
If our motorways were managed by the state they would be toll free but A3-A19-SS3bis would be the standard for the whole network with all consequences we can imagine: 24-7 congestion, very high accident rates, slower and more expensive road transportation.

However, some countries such D and NL managed to have excellent toll free motorways. It's obvious that things here work differently.
Not that to have roads managed and built by private companies is much different, the first example comes in my mind is the SS36 between Monza and Cinisello Balsamo, where the private company that got the procurement (Impregilo - owned by Autostrade SPA (Benetton) for 33% and for 33% by Argo Finanza (Gavio) that controls around 1000 Km of the highway in Italy - A15, A12, A10,A21, etc...) for to built 4 KM wasted 15 years and 228 millions (and still the road is not built) http://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2012...-non-c/203050/.
At the contrary in Japan after the earthquake the damaged sections of the highway were rebuilt in 6 days for the 94% of the entire lenght (over 850 km). A country that shares with us the risk of earthquakes and problems with the mafia. In this case I would be glad to pay a toll highway like in Japan if in Italy they would have the same efficiency (or at least half of it)...
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Old July 26th, 2012, 02:31 AM   #3896
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I think that the ownership of old polluting vehicles should be heavily taxed, while those who have Euro 4 or more should pay much less taxes than what they're currently paying.
Off course classic cars amateurs would start complain.
Something like this already exists, cause a car for to be historic must be written in the ASI register or any other club for historic vehicles and pass all the inspections (Historic cars have an annual technical inspection, old cars every 2 years like all vehicles after 4 years. But they have no tax possession (all cars after 20 years) and lower insurance - around 110 euro yearly, just for historic club registered vehicles -), otherwise is just an old car with all limitations for pulluting vehicles.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 09:55 AM   #3897
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Spinoza wasn't saying that abolition of the restriction in c zone was bad, but it's bad that a private citizen has the power to change a regulation for their own interests.
Actually I was saying both things. Area C abolition is very bad, for me.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:02 PM   #3898
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Actually I was saying both things. Area C abolition is very bad, for me.
Do you think Italian cities should be free to start charging non-residents from driving there, especially when you consider that only Milano has a subway network of decent size and even so very limited?

Would you agree to plans like those that call for Roma to charge something similar for anyone entering the central area within the GRA???

If they are serious about air pollution in Milano, they should go after old cars, no matter who owns them, because a 1985 Panda pollutes like 20 brand new VW Golfs for instance... And all those mopeds pollute insanely per km traveled, yet the authorities go after cars...
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:15 PM   #3899
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Do you think Italian cities should be free to start charging non-residents from driving there, especially when you consider that only Milano has a subway network of decent size and even so very limited?

Would you agree to plans like those that call for Roma to charge something similar for anyone entering the central area within the GRA???
I'd be even stricter. Paying for entering the city is not enough. I'd forbid non residents to enter the city.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:24 PM   #3900
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I'd be even stricter. Paying for entering the city is not enough. I'd forbid non residents to enter the city.
Why this medieval thinking? People should be confined to their own cities and never visit someone somewhere else or shop elsewhere then?
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