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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:26 PM   #3901
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What if I want to do a delivery in my van?
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:27 PM   #3902
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Why this medieval thinking?
Because city centres in Italy ARE medieval. They are not made for cars. Since we cannot remove city centres, we remove cars, it's as simple as that.

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People should be confined to their own cities and never visit someone somewhere else or shop elsewhere then?
Ehem... knock knock. Cars are not the only means of transportation in the world, you know.

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What if I want to do a delivery in my van?
Usually they can. It's not thinkable that city centre store suppliers take the bus. But private citizens can and must.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:30 PM   #3903
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Cool. After I've done the delivery I will park up and go shopping
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:30 PM   #3904
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Cool. After I've done the delivery I will park up and go shopping
That's misfeasance
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:36 PM   #3905
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Ehem... knock knock. Cars are not the only means of transportation in the world, you know.
But car it's the only transport that goes 24 hours, since public services for 70% are off duty in the night (And I recommend you to use them, if you're tired to live...) and the only one that goes everywhere
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:37 PM   #3906
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Because city centres in Italy ARE medieval. They are not made for cars. Since we cannot remove city centres, we remove cars, it's as simple as that.
Should we remove electricity, cell phone antennas, running pressurized water and sewage collection as well? They all didn't exist in 1700...

Cities just adapt over time for new infrastructure...

Moreover, Area C is not some small ZTL covering pre-18th Century areas that you can easily walk through like many small cities have. It is a freaking large area almost 5km across in some points. The suggestions of park-outside-and-walk might be feasible in some place like Urbino or the walled area of Lucca but not in a large area like "Area C".
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:38 PM   #3907
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Also you would have to turn pretty much the entire Viale Zara into a car park and set up a free Park & Ride scheme.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:40 PM   #3908
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But car it's the only transport that goes 24 hours, since public services for 70% are off duty in the night (And I recommend you to use them, if you're tired to live...) and the only one that goes everywhere
Barely any Italian city has reliable and comprehensive PT networks on rails (trams or subways or people movers or else). And they all lose money.

Actually, ATM is a prime example: before the 50% fare hike, its farebox recovery ratio was only 16%. And it is not like they had a small fleet foregoing scale gains or that they were running empty vehicles...
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:41 PM   #3909
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But car it's the only transport that goes 24 hours, since public services for 70% are off duty in the night (And I recommend you to use them, if you're tired to live...) and the only one that goes everywhere
Why would you want to go to the city centre at night? And if you really want to, night buses still exist. As a matter of fact, they could even open the centres at night, because traffic will be low.

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Should we remove electricity, cell phone antennas, running pressurized water and sewage collection as well? They all didn't exist in 1700...
Correction, sewage collection was invented by Romans 2700 years ago.
And of course you know that you cannot compare electricity and car traffic. The first one makes no harm to city centres.

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Cities just adapt over time for new infrastructure...
Let's hope they don't.

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Moreover, Area C is not some small ZTL covering pre-18th Century areas that you can easily walk through like many small cities have. It is a freaking large area almost 5km across in some points. The suggestions of park-outside-and-walk might be feasible in some place like Urbino or the walled area of Lucca but not in a large area like "Area C".
I never said that Area C is perfect. But from applying it to removing it, there's a whole lot of greys...

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Barely any Italian city has reliable and comprehensive PT networks on rails (trams or subways or people movers or else). And they all lose money.
In my view, PT is not supposed to "make money". It is a service.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:49 PM   #3910
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This is more-or-less the limits of "medieval Milano" as in typical irregular patterned, small-and-cramped streets etc. built out well before horse-drawn carriages had become ubiquitous (which dictated the implementation of boulevard when they later expanded the city).

This are, where maneuvering cars would be really more difficult (it is partially covered by a ZTL), is just 1/7 of all the "Area C" or "Ecopass" area.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:49 PM   #3911
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Why would you want to go to the city centre at night?....
I'm not taking sides in this debate, but I'm curious about that question: do Italian cities not have nightlife (ranging from theater and dining to clubbing) in their centers?
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:51 PM   #3912
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Why would you want to go to the city centre at night? And if you really want to, night buses still exist. As a matter of fact, they could even open the centres at night, because traffic will be low.
People don't work only during the day, you know? And besides work, life is done also of fun, like to go to disco or pub...
Yes, try to take the night line 90-91 in Milan, I bet then you would change mind
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:51 PM   #3913
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I'm not taking sides in this debate, but I'm curious about that question: do Italian cities not have nightlife (ranging from theater and dining to clubbing) in their centers?
Of course they do. I've lived for 12 years in Bologna as a student, had my fair share of night joyrides, and never used a car once.

But who cares, let's trash our beautiful cities because someone is lazy and wants to go everywhere sitting in his car.

Last edited by g.spinoza; July 26th, 2012 at 04:57 PM.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:53 PM   #3914
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I can understand G's position. Italian cities are ancient, and they need to remain in tact. Mass traffic and pollution does not keep the buildings in tact.

I can understand Surbanists position, and hardly ever agree with him. Mountains, buildings and tourist centres cannot make way for asphalt all the time, no matter how high the demand. I know you love concrete, but it's just not possible.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 05:00 PM   #3915
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Of course they do. I've lived for 12 years in Bologna as a student, had my fair share of night joyrides, and never used a car once.

But who cares, let's trash our beautiful cities because someone is lazy and wants to go everywhere sitting in his car.
Sigh.

Your question seemed to me to suggest that city centers were dead at night: that there was no reason for going into them at all, as opposed to no reason for going in by car. Hence my question to you was (if I say so myself) reasonable.

I'm not advocating trashing anything, and that should have been clear. But there are reasons for using cars besides laziness.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 05:04 PM   #3916
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Sigh.

Your question seemed to me to suggest that city centers were dead at night: that there was no reason for going into them at all, as opposed to no reason for going in by car. Hence my question to you was (if I say so myself) reasonable.

I'm not advocating trashing anything, and that should have been clear. But there are reasons for using cars besides laziness.
I'm sorry, the "trash" part was not addressed to you. You asked a fair question because I was not clear before, I added the "trash" part later.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 05:06 PM   #3917
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But who cares, let's trash our beautiful cities because someone is lazy and wants to go everywhere sitting in his car.
Try, realistically, to live somewhere around Milano (which is common for middle class families because of housing costs), going out in the city and trying to rely on PT to go back home... impossible. There is NO public transportation after 23h-0h (and "reliable" PT stops much earlier than that) until next day. Which, in case of a weekend morning, means 7.00 or so for the first services.

In the case of Bologna, many young (18-30) people go the from Ravenna, Modena and other cities because of better nightlife, but then they have to go back. There is no possible way to return home expect driving unless you want to wait 8am next day. During summer, many people from Bologna and other cities go for a night out in the coast, but return home same night as it's damn out of reach of a student's budget to fork €€ for a hotel night, whereas borrowing their parents' car for a night out is more realistically feasible.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 05:09 PM   #3918
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Try, realistically, to live somewhere around Milano (which is common for middle class families because of housing costs), going out in the city and trying to rely on PT to go back home... impossible. There is NO public transportation after 23h-0h (and "reliable" PT stops much earlier than that) until next day. Which, in case of a weekend morning, means 7.00 or so for the first services.

In the case of Bologna, many young (18-30) people go the from Ravenna, Modena and other cities because of better nightlife, but then they have to go back. There is no possible way to return home expect driving unless you want to wait 8am next day. During summer, many people from Bologna and other cities go for a night out in the coast, but return home same night as it's damn out of reach of a student's budget to fork €€ for a hotel night, whereas borrowing their parents' car for a night out is more realistically feasible.
When you go out at night, you are likely to have a few drinks, and shouldn't be driving in the first place.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 05:10 PM   #3919
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Try, realistically, to live somewhere around Milano (which is common for middle class families because of housing costs), going out in the city and trying to rely on PT to go back home... impossible. There is NO public transportation after 23h-0h (and "reliable" PT stops much earlier than that) until next day. Which, in case of a weekend morning, means 7.00 or so for the first services.
Again, I never said that you can close city centres tomorrow and everything will be fine. There are things to do, more buses and trams to establish, ecc ecc, and someone will still be damaged. But to me the common good is more important than the good of someone.

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In the case of Bologna, many young (18-30) people go the from Ravenna, Modena and other cities because of better nightlife, but then they have to go back. There is no possible way to return home expect driving unless you want to wait 8am next day. During summer, many people from Bologna and other cities go for a night out in the coast, but return home same night as it's damn out of reach of a student's budget to fork €€ for a hotel night, whereas borrowing their parents' car for a night out is more realistically feasible.
So? Take the car from Ravenna to Bologna, park outside the city centre limits and then walk or take a bus. I don't think it's so hard to do.

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When you go out at night, you are likely to have a few drinks, and shouldn't be driving in the first place.
This is something I wanted to add, but of course you can (should, no, must) elect a designated driver who will be forced to drink apple juice and cola.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 05:23 PM   #3920
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I can understand G's position. Italian cities are ancient, and they need to remain in tact. Mass traffic and pollution does not keep the buildings in tact.
This is the basic debate in any Italian city above the town size, I'll try to summarize it.

Some cities like Roma, Firenze, Peruggia, Venezia, for all that is good and bad, have their central medieval areas dominated by overnight tourism (e.g., people who stay there in hotels) and thus have a dynamic of their own (which some people will criticize as "overcommercialization" or "cliché-restaurants" etc.

For the cities whose medieval centers are not massively dominated by tourist traffic, you have a problem: old buildings are expensive to upkeep, streets are narrow, commercial spaces don't feet the modern demands for retail and offices. To keep the central areas of those cities "alive" and at-par with modern demands, they need massive infusions of cash for extremely expensive retrofitting projects, garages, car traffic and the likes. Simply put: the majority of middle class families is not willing to live in a car-less area, but they also can't fork top-Euro for "lovely restored palazzi" near the main square, for instance.

As a result, you'll end in many city medieval centers with the extremes of the income ladder: the rich, who can pay for nice old buildings, afford expensive car parking permits/garages, and the poor who usually work more on low-skilled jobs and accept living in small/semi-derelict/rundown flats that are close to their workplaces. This is why many people who visit Italian city centers will get the impression that "immigrants are everywhere", as they tend to cluster around old areas in non-renovated buildings and else.

You can keep old city centers intact, but that means transforming them in "forced open-air museums". Which might or might not be of some people's taste, especially when you are talking of vast swaths of build-up areas in places like Verona, Bari, Napoli, Genova etc that would become "void of life" in some ppl's opinion.

Some cities escape that trend because they have large student population that populates old areas, usually living in conditions far worse than other Western Europe counterparts (such as paying € 200-300/month and not even having an own bedroom).

Road transportation is, of course, just part, but an important part, of the problem. Many medieval center of Italian cities dwarf anything else existing in Western Europe, so the area of keeping everything that is old intact and banning cars from such areas is just non-workable unless you expect the area to de-populate. If so, and the town is not a place drawing millions of visitors per year, what are cities supposed to do next without taxes to pay for the very expensive ifnrastructure of those old areas?

I think they should take a more realistic approach: preserve some quarters and neighborhoods but rip part of them of for new traffic infrastructure (road and rail) so that more places can be reachable within reasonable walking distance (< 10 minutes) from parking garages and train stations. Actually this is what many cities did post WW-2, like Genova, for instance.
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