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Old July 26th, 2012, 05:29 PM   #3921
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When you go out at night, you are likely to have a few drinks, and shouldn't be driving in the first place.
Get 4 friends and one of you 5 don't drink (it was usually me).
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Old July 26th, 2012, 05:32 PM   #3922
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Road transportation is, of course, just part, but an important part, of the problem. Many medieval center of Italian cities dwarf anything else existing in Western Europe, so the area of keeping everything that is old intact and banning cars from such areas is just non-workable unless you expect the area to de-populate. If so, and the town is not a place drawing millions of visitors per year, what are cities supposed to do next without taxes to pay for the very expensive ifnrastructure of those old areas?
Bologna has one of the largest city centres in Italy, but can still be crossed on foot in less than half an hour, meaning that you can reach any point inside the centre from the limits in less than 15 minutes.

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I think they should take a more realistic approach: preserve some quarters and neighborhoods but rip part of them of for new traffic infrastructure (road and rail) so that more places can be reachable within reasonable walking distance (< 10 minutes) from parking garages and train stations. Actually this is what many cities did post WW-2, like Genova, for instance.
Don't even say that.
Let me tell you a story. At the beginning of XX century they decided to demolish Bologna city centre medieval walls to open a 4 lane road ring. They wanted to demolish also the city gates, only the poet Giosuč Carducci opposed vehemently and they managed to destroy "only" 2 of them out of 12.

So they destroyed 800-years-old, perfectly preserved, historical monuments to build a road that could be built 10 meters outside.

This is not development. This is barbarism.

(The real reason they demolished the walls was to create jobs for masons and bricklayers, possibly for electoral reasons).
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Old July 26th, 2012, 05:37 PM   #3923
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So? Take the car from Ravenna to Bologna, park outside the city centre limits and then walk or take a bus. I don't think it's so hard to do.
The question, going back to Milano "Area C", is: Milano already has a ZTL covering many medieval areas, where only residents, taxis and some other exempt people can enter. So there would be no need for a second layer of "prohibited areas" there.

Bologna has also a ZTL that I consider excessively large, though. I'm not thinking of allowing traffic in the narrow alleys, but making the major thoroughfares car-accessible and building 2 or 3 massive underground parking lots along the "T".
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Old July 26th, 2012, 05:40 PM   #3924
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The question, going back to Milano "Area C", is: Milano already have a ZTL covering many medieval areas, where only residents, taxis and some other exempt people can enter. So there would be no need for a second layer of "prohibited areas" there.

Bologna has also a ZTL that I consider excessively large, though. I'm not thinking of allowing traffic in the narrow alleys, but making the major thoroughfares car-accessible and building 2 or 3 massive underground parking lots along the "T".
You could have a point here, in fact I think we had this discussion before.

Point is that one end of the "T" (the western one) ends in a not very large road (Strada Maggiore, despite the name, is not major at all), but you have the possibility to go right into via Castiglione. As a matter of fact the other two ends (Via Indipendenza and via Ugo Bassi) could sustain through traffic well.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 05:45 PM   #3925
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Don't even say that.
Let me tell you a story. At the beginning of XX century they decided to demolish Bologna city centre medieval walls to open a 4 lane road ring. They wanted to demolish also the city gates, only the poet Giosuč Carducci opposed vehemently and they managed to destroy "only" 2 of them out of 12.
Almost all major Italian cities have had two walled perimeters, one for their early history and a second one right down to early/mid/late 19th Century.

Demolishing walls was usually considered a sign of progress, of abandoning the "cluster mentality".

You can easily trace these dual walled perimeters by merely looking for wide circular-ish boulevards/roads in cities like Milano, Bologna, Roma, Firenze etc.

Other European cities had torn down their walls much earlier. The only reasons those relics of past stayed in Italy is because the areas that form modern-Italy entered a long period of stagnation after Renaissance well into late 19th century in some cases, e.g., well past time by which gunpowder had rendered walls militarily useless for strategic purposes.

It is not like they demolished the walls to create a road, but instead that they wanted to demolish walls first place, and then since there was a large swath of strip land they built boulevards. Usually that even predated cars, like Milano.

Maybe they were a little too late with the process in Bologna, but I doubt they teared the walls because they wanted to build a road.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 05:49 PM   #3926
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Demolishing walls was usually considered a sign of progress, of abandoning the "cluster mentality".
To me it's just a sign of stupidity. With this kind of reasoning we should tear the Colosseum down because the Olympic Stadium is more modern

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Other European cities had torn down their walls much earlier.
People didn't have preservation of the wonders of the past in mind, back then. Now we do. At least, some of us do.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 05:53 PM   #3927
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To me it's just a sign of stupidity. With this kind of reasoning we should tear the Colosseum down because the Olympic Stadium is more modern
Maybe in 50 years they will say people that want to demolish the Genova elevated access expressway were stupid by aiming to take down an incredibly awesome piece of infrastructure
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Old July 26th, 2012, 05:55 PM   #3928
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Maybe in 50 years they will say people that want to demolish the Genova elevated access expressway were stupid by aiming to take down an incredibly awesome piece of infrastructure
Maybe. That's why I hope they tear that down sooner
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:06 PM   #3929
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post

I think they should take a more realistic approach: preserve some quarters and neighborhoods but rip part of them of for new traffic infrastructure (road and rail) so that more places can be reachable within reasonable walking distance (< 10 minutes) from parking garages and train stations. Actually this is what many cities did post WW-2, like Genova, for instance.
What a horrible and evil thing to say! Do you really want to rip up the heritage of Italy? Make them look like these ugly suburbs like they have in Holland, England or America? Take away vital income of the people of Italy that is rendered by tourism, and culture and education of 1000's of years of civilization for the sake of a few roads and railtracks? Why not dry out the canals of Venice while you are at it, and replace them by roads...
Wait a minute, you are the same guy that wants to concrete up my valleys and unspoiled mountains, and replace them with roads and motorways for the sake of progress, and tear down the ski resorts that happen to be in the way...
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:10 PM   #3930
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There are cases in which to demolish something historic is the only solution. A case coming in my mind is the A11 and the Acquedotto Nottolini.


In other cases the human being should preserve its natural and historic heritage cause it's more important than whatever amount.
Every case should be taken singular and analyzed, to generalize serves nothing
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:13 PM   #3931
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I think they could have saved the Nottolini Acquaduct, if they really wanted to.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:14 PM   #3932
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I think they could have saved the Nottolini Acquaduct, if they really wanted to.
How?
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:17 PM   #3933
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How?
I don't know, I'm not an engineer. A tunnel? A deviation? One carriageway inside an arch, the other in another one? There are lots of solutions. They didn't just want to think about it, or to spend too much.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:29 PM   #3934
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If you are not an engineer, how can you say there are solutions also? The A11 was built in the 30's, one carriageway and it passed under an arch, but it was rebuilt completely making it larger than all others. In the 60's the highway got the second carriageway, so they had to destroy other 5 columns by force. Don't you think that a deviation of over 3 km (that's the lenght of the acqueduct) would have done much more damages than the actual solution?
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:32 PM   #3935
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If you are not an engineer, how can you say there are solutions also?
Because there is always a solution.

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Don't you think that a deviation of over 3 km (that's the lenght of the acqueduct) would have done much more damages than the actual solution?
No.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:34 PM   #3936
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Maybe most foreigners don't know that Via della Conciliazione in Rome (the wide boulevard that lead to the St Peter square) was build after demolishing a characteristic medieval quarter "Borgo di Spina" in 1936. The effect is now pleasant but it is a pity that this old part of the city isn't there anymore.
Genoa's sopraelevata was a more more bigger disaster, it should be replaced by a tunnel. The same for the Tangenziale Est di Roma, part of it was already put underground recently.
Until the beginning of the XX century was normal to tear down old structures, even just for get free construction materials, but recent episodes of destruction of the historical heritage are unacceptable.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:38 PM   #3937
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Maybe most foreigners don't know that Via della Conciliazione in Rome (the wide boulevard that lead to the St Peter square) was build after demolishing a characteristic medieval quarter "Borgo di Spina" in 1936. The effect is now pleasant but it is a pity that this old part of the city isn't there anymore.
There were discussions and concerns back then. St Peter was built having in mind that Borgo di Spina prevented the church from being spotted from afar, so that you carved your way through the little alleys and all of a sudden you turn and... oh, my, the mighty church appears like a revelation.
Via della Conciliazione destroyed the intentions of Bramante, Michelangelo and all those who were involved in the building.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:40 PM   #3938
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Because there is always a solution.



No.
You asphalt much more surface going from A to C passing from B than to go directly from A to C. That's pretty simple, but maybe you like asphalt...
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:42 PM   #3939
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf
Maybe most foreigners don't know that Via della Conciliazione in Rome (the wide boulevard that lead to the St Peter square) was build after demolishing a characteristic medieval quarter "Borgo di Spina" in 1936. The effect is now pleasant but it is a pity that this old part of the city isn't there anymore.
Genoa's sopraelevata was a more more bigger disaster, it should be replaced by a tunnel. The same for the Tangenziale Est di Roma, part of it was already put underground recently.
Until the beginning of the XX century was normal to tear down old structures, even just for get free construction materials, but recent episodes of destruction of the historical heritage are unacceptable.
And Via Appia? I usually enter Rome that way. First sightseeing on that road: prostitutes.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:43 PM   #3940
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84

You asphalt much more surface going from A to C passing from B than to go directly from A to C. That's pretty simple, but maybe you like asphalt...
More asphalt in the open countryside is less damaging than tear down an ancient building.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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