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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:43 PM   #3941
g.spinoza
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
You asphalt much more surface going from A to C passing from B than to go directly from A to C. That's pretty simple, but maybe you like asphalt...
I don't like asphalt that much, but I prefer a little more asphalt over basically nothing that destroying an historical monument that was also perfectly functioning until then. So they destroyed Lucca's perfectly functioning 110-years-old aquaduct and had to rebuild another one anew.
That's much for just 3 km less of autostrada.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:48 PM   #3942
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And Via Appia? I usually enter Rome that way. First sightseeing on that road: prostitutes.
Also Via Salaria and Via Cristoforo Colombo are notorious for that.
Street prostitution was even more widespreed across the country until a decade ago, before the internet chat era.
Merlin law that outlawed brothels in 1958 was a great mistake. Shit will never go away, at least made it less harmful.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:50 PM   #3943
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Salaria... I think I've meant that one. A1 coming from the north, first split towards the GRA and Rome...
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:51 PM   #3944
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More asphalt in the open countryside is less damaging than tear down an ancient building.
Also you don't know well that area, it's not a desert, there are towns all around it. And the ancient building in this case it's just a section of discontinued acqueduct built 150 years ago, not older of many other buildings would be destroyed with a deviation
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:51 PM   #3945
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Salaria... I think I've meant that one. A1 coming from the north, first split towards the GRA and Rome...
Yes, Via Appia (SS7) leads towards Neaples and Bari.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:53 PM   #3946
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Also you don't know well that area, it's not a desert, there are towns all around it. And the ancient building in this case it's just a section of discontinued acqueduct built 150 years ago, not older of many other buildings would be destroyed with a deviation
So remains the tunnel hypotesis.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:54 PM   #3947
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Yes, Via Appia (SS7) leads towards Neaples and Bari.
Yes, I use that one as well, reloading at regular companies in Naples or Salerno.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:12 PM   #3948
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So remains the tunnel hypotesis.
I think you are missing a little detail: the acqueduct was finished in 1851. The A11 with one carriage was built in 1930, with the first modification of the acqueduct structure, and the section of 6 columns was destroyed in 1962. It means after 111 years. Now you have to reason with the mentality of 1962... was really worth to build an expansive tunnel to preserve an obsolete acqueduct of only 111 years (when in Tuscany there are prehistoric, medieval and renaissance sights of much more historical value)??
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:15 PM   #3949
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I can get the mentality of 1962, but I don't have to like it or share it. And more, it was 1962, not 1900. Preservation of historical sites wasn't unheard of.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:20 PM   #3950
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I think you are missing a little detail: the acqueduct was finished in 1851. The A11 with one carriage was built in 1930, with the first modification of the acqueduct structure, and the section of 6 columns was destroyed in 1962. It means after 111 years. Now you have to reason with the mentality of 1962... was really worth to build an expansive tunnel to preserve an obsolete acqueduct of only 111 years (when in Tuscany there are prehistoric, medieval and renaissance sights of much more historical value)??
With the current mentality they would have built a tunnel... after 20 years of protests and discussions plus another decade to complete works with a final cost 10 times higher than the planned one.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:22 PM   #3951
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I can get the mentality of 1962, but I don't have to like it or share it. And more, it was 1962, not 1900. Preservation of historical sites wasn't unheard of.
Yes but if you want to preserve everything, also actually your should ride a horse on stone roads since most of the actual roads are built on the ancient tracks. Would be charming to live like in the medieval times, where life expectancy was 40 y.o. but life went on and now we have cars and asphalt. So we must do compromises
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:24 PM   #3952
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Yes but if you want to preserve everything, also actually your should ride a horse on stone roads since most of the actual roads are built on the ancient tracks. Would be charming to live like in the medieval times, where life expectancy was 40 y.o. but life went on and now we have cars and asphalt. So we must do compromises
Reductio ad absurdum, usual argument of whoever has no arguments.

Now tell me where I said I want to preserve everything.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:25 PM   #3953
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With the current mentality they would have built a tunnel... after 20 years of protests and discussions plus another decade to complete works with a final cost 10 times higher than the planned one.
...and something sure fails during the works so in the end we wouldn't have both acqueduct and the highway
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:32 PM   #3954
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Reductio ad absurdum, usual argument of whoever has no arguments.

Now tell me where I said I want to preserve everything.
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Because city centres in Italy ARE medieval. They are not made for cars. Since we cannot remove city centres, we remove cars, it's as simple as that.
Cause you would want to remove cars to preserve something medieval (and cities that preserved real medieval city center are few nowadays, and already cars cant enter).
And the fact you consider historic sight also something that wasn't historical at all
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:42 PM   #3955
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Banning mass traffic from inner city centres carries more benefits than keeping preservations. You lived in Germany, you should know this.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:44 PM   #3956
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Cause you would want to remove cars to preserve something medieval (and cities that preserved real medieval city center are few nowadays, and already cars cant enter).
And the fact you consider historic sight also something that wasn't historical at all
"Everything" and "everything historical" are two very different ideas.
If 200 houses built in the 1980s have to be destroyed to make room for an autostrada, be my guest. If an artifact from the 1850s, perfectly working and also of fine workmanship has to be irremediably damaged, I'm against.

We can debate on when a building becomes "historical". As a matter of fact I'm not happy with the destruction of Nottolini Aquaduct but I can live with that. I'm much more angry about the walls of Bologna.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:47 PM   #3957
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Banning mass traffic from inner city centres carries more benefits than keeping preservations. You lived in Germany, you should know this.
Yes, that's why I loved the german model....there were the zone where cars could go and the zone where the access was forbidden cause it was pedestrian. No ZTL with all exceptions or fees to pay....
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:50 PM   #3958
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"Everything" and "everything historical" are two very different ideas.
True, I hope nobody is arguing to made car free also recent quarters, that were designed for car traffic and would be dead without it.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:54 PM   #3959
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"Everything" and "everything historical" are two very different ideas.
If 200 houses built in the 1980s have to be destroyed to make room for an autostrada, be my guest. If an artifact from the 1850s, perfectly working and also of fine workmanship has to be irremediably damaged, I'm against.

We can debate on when a building becomes "historical". As a matter of fact I'm not happy with the destruction of Nottolini Aquaduct but I can live with that. I'm much more angry about the walls of Bologna.
I don't know what about walls of Bologna so I say nothing about it.
About your example, I would instead save the 200 houses cause you can't kick people in the middle of the street (and expropriation 99% of the case don't refund you the real value of what you lost with it). I'm sorry but people are at first place for me, then the historic artifacts
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:58 PM   #3960
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True, I hope nobody is arguing to made car free also recent quarters, that were designed for car traffic and would be dead without it.
Also there's few to discuss. Medieval city centers like Siena, Lucca, Pisa, etc... have already a banning of circulation for non-residents
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