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Old July 26th, 2012, 08:09 PM   #3961
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I'm not taking sides in this, as I said, but I am following it. So I have a question: what's a ZTL?
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Old July 26th, 2012, 08:21 PM   #3962
Satyricon84
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ZTL = Zona Traffico Limitato. Limited traffic zone

EDIT: If I remember well you can read french, also here a little explanation http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_%C...ic_limit%C3%A9
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Old July 26th, 2012, 08:21 PM   #3963
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
I don't know what about walls of Bologna so I say nothing about it.
About your example, I would instead save the 200 houses cause you can't kick people in the middle of the street (and expropriation 99% of the case don't refund you the real value of what you lost with it). I'm sorry but people are at first place for me, then the historic artifacts
I remind you that expropriation laws in Italy grant you 3 times the market value of what you lost. You can replace houses for people. You can't replace a medieval castle or the Colosseum.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 08:26 PM   #3964
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I remind you that expropriation laws in Italy grant you 3 times the market value of what you lost. You can replace houses for people. You can't replace a medieval castle or the Colosseum.
Italian laws says also that is equal for everybody, but we know well is not like this. Same for expropriation. I know it well since the Pedemontana Lombarda will be built on my friend's home...
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Old July 26th, 2012, 10:42 PM   #3965
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I don't know, I'm not an engineer. A tunnel? A deviation? One carriageway inside an arch, the other in another one? There are lots of solutions. They didn't just want to think about it, or to spend too much.
The problem with this reasoning is that, while on a micro level one aqueduct merely 150 year-old might be worth extra € hundreds of million on tunneling/deviation, imagine what would happen if a "tear down no old structure" approach was taken in regard of all infrastructure in Italy. Or just the autostrade for sake... It would be impossible to have built a network because pretty much everywhere there is a "scenic view", some ruins you stumble upon if excavating, some old structures... then A1 Milano-Napoli would have the form of some spaghetti and run for 2000km between two cities if it were to avoid "damaging irreparably" any old structure.

In Italy, even tunneling is problematic because of stuff you find there. Go ask the builders of Roman subway extension...

Individually considered, pretty much any site might get sympathetic looks of "spare no money and save it", but on a national, comprehensive view, a country like Italy cannot afford to have infrastructure costing 20 times that of US because of an hypothetical do not tear down anything and do not spoil any town policy".
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Old July 27th, 2012, 01:07 AM   #3966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist

The problem with this reasoning is that, while on a micro level one aqueduct merely 150 year-old might be worth extra € hundreds of million on tunneling/deviation, imagine what would happen if a "tear down no old structure" approach was taken in regard of all infrastructure in Italy. Or just the autostrade for sake... It would be impossible to have built a network because pretty much everywhere there is a "scenic view", some ruins you stumble upon if excavating, some old structures... then A1 Milano-Napoli would have the form of some spaghetti and run for 2000km between two cities if it were to avoid "damaging irreparably" any old structure.

In Italy, even tunneling is problematic because of stuff you find there. Go ask the builders of Roman subway extension...

Individually considered, pretty much any site might get sympathetic looks of "spare no money and save it", but on a national, comprehensive view, a country like Italy cannot afford to have infrastructure costing 20 times that of US because of an hypothetical do not tear down anything and do not spoil any town policy".
One thing is a random 150 years old country house like thousands of other similar in Italy, another thing is a 150 years old characteristic landmark.
One thing is tunnelling a random mountain or bridging a random stream like many others in the Alps or Appennines, another thing is building a viaduct over Marmore waterfall in Umbria, over Lake Como between Bellagio and Tremezzo or over the town of Monterosso in the Cinque Terre.
If archaelogical reperts emerge during tunnelling works it's a positive thing: they could be shown in museums instead of being hidden forever.
Age is not the only factor that made buildings valuables. I wouldn't see San Pio sanctuary in San Giovanni Rotondo or the Guggenheim museum in NYC torn down.
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Old July 27th, 2012, 12:47 PM   #3967
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
Italian laws says also that is equal for everybody, but we know well is not like this. Same for expropriation. I know it well since the Pedemontana Lombarda will be built on my friend's home...
I'd like to know more about this. Obviously no names, but I'd like to know which problems your friend is facing.
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Old July 27th, 2012, 01:39 PM   #3968
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Try, realistically, to live somewhere around Milano (which is common for middle class families because of housing costs), going out in the city and trying to rely on PT to go back home... impossible.
I live around Milan and use car and PT every day.
It's called park and ride: there are many parkings at metro stations (and even rail stations and tram and bus stations) close to the city borders.
And even in the metro area, over all at railways stations with S lines service

Anyway Milan is not the only city in Italy to have such a service: Rome, Naples, Turin and many others have park and ride systems.

Obviously things could be improved, but to state that to commute by car is a need is a justification that too many Italians use not to change their habits.
It's not that true that PT is poor or inneficient (in last 15 years there was a general improvement of PT in whole Italian cities too)

Furthermore there is not only traditional PT as alternative to use own cars.
You can even use car sharing service
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Old July 27th, 2012, 01:43 PM   #3969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I think they could have saved the Nottolini Acquaduct, if they really wanted to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
How?
A deep tunnel, for istance
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Old July 27th, 2012, 02:04 PM   #3970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I'd like to know more about this. Obviously no names, but I'd like to know which problems your friend is facing.


The upper circle is a floricolture, and people live there too. They give work to 15 people. They know they have expropriation, but neither the technical office of the comune knows how much land they want to expropriate, and neither when. So they had to hire a lawyer (and a lawyer is never cheaper). Fact is, with this expropriation they don't lose only the house, but also the thirty-years work activity, that should be moved somewhere else. The expropriation refund doesn't care of the additional costs, but only of the proprierty value in the market. And somebody will lose work too.
The lower circle instead they live two families. The have stable with horses, swimming pool and they lived in absolute tranquillity with no annoying neighbours around. To find a new house in the same conditions here will be impossible. Life of those people will change not for their will, and for this there's no refund.
Then there's a problem that the highway will cut in half a lot of cultivated land, the refund is for the part of land expropriated. Many problems that at the moment don't have any solution, since nobody here knows when and if the works will start.
I also face problems too even if not so directly: being the Pedemontana will be around 400 m far away from my home, and my home is on sell, at the moment we have a lot of problems to sell. Is not clear if the highway will create benefits or not, this affects the final price that probabilly we have to get lower. And nobody will refund me for this.
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Old July 27th, 2012, 02:23 PM   #3971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84

The upper circle is a floricolture, and people live there too. They give work to 15 people. They know they have expropriation, but neither the technical office of the comune knows how much land they want to expropriate, and neither when. So they had to hire a lawyer (and a lawyer is never cheaper). Fact is, with this expropriation they don't lose only the house, but also the thirty-years work activity, that should be moved somewhere else. The expropriation refund doesn't care of the additional costs, but only of the proprierty value in the market. And somebody will lose work too.
The lower circle instead they live two families. The have stable with horses, swimming pool and they lived in absolute tranquillity with no annoying neighbours around. To find a new house in the same conditions here will be impossible. Life of those people will change not for their will, and for this there's no refund.
Then there's a problem that the highway will cut in half a lot of cultivated land, the refund is for the part of land expropriated. Many problems that at the moment don't have any solution, since nobody here knows when and if the works will start.
I also face problems too even if not so directly: being the Pedemontana will be around 400 m far away from my home, and my home is on sell, at the moment we have a lot of problems to sell. Is not clear if the highway will create benefits or not, this affects the final price that probabilly we have to get lower. And nobody will refund me for this.
The motorway doesn't seem to be built over the houses and the flower farm. Off course living here would be very bad because of noise and pollution but there is no point in demolishing those buildings.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 27th, 2012, 02:39 PM   #3972
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The motorway doesn't seem to be built over the houses and the flower farm. Off course living here would be very bad because of noise and pollution but there is no point in demolishing those buildings.
Did you watch it with attention? Part of the project is over their proprierty. And besides this, buildings have to keep a minimal distance from the highway.
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Old July 27th, 2012, 02:48 PM   #3973
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84

Did you watch it with attention? Part of the project is over their proprierty. And besides this, buildings have to keep a minimal distance from the highway.
Yes, part of their backyards would be occupied by the interchange. Do those building must be demolished by law because too close to the motorway?
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 27th, 2012, 03:10 PM   #3974
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Yes, part of their backyards would be occupied by the interchange. Do those building must be demolished by law because too close to the motorway?
I guess also cause they need the space to work on
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Old July 27th, 2012, 03:23 PM   #3975
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For the first stretch of Pedemontana currently u/c they expropriated several factories and, as far as I know, they were paid to build somewhere else their factories and in some cases Pedemontana co. itself found 'em a new location
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Old July 27th, 2012, 03:37 PM   #3976
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For the first stretch of Pedemontana currently u/c they expropriated several factories and, as far as I know, they were paid to build somewhere else their factories and in some cases Pedemontana co. itself found 'em a new location
Let's see what they will do here. The first stretch was the easiest to build, problems will start when they will build the section near Desio. Already the costs are much more higher than first budget, works had to be already started but here nobody knows nothing about. And 'Ndrangheta already hooked into the project with some people arrested.
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Old July 29th, 2012, 02:07 PM   #3977
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Toll at Italy
Driveway Bergamo

Ticket


Exit Brescia Ovest

2,80€ Please

Driveway Brescia Ovest

Ticket


Tollplaza Vipiteno/Sterzing

19,90€ Please
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Old July 30th, 2012, 11:27 AM   #3978
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http://www.ilgiorno.it/legnano/crona..._accordo.shtml

Within the framework of updating A4 west of Milan (current autostrada has no shoulder in some stretches), a 5.2 km stretch near Bernate will be built anew 250 m south of the current stretch. The new "variante" will be aligned to the existent TAV railway but 20 houses will have to be demolished.
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Old July 30th, 2012, 11:49 AM   #3979
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Interesting. I assume it includes a new bridge across the Ticino that explains the € 220 million cost. By the way there are not "20 houses" to be demolished, but a single farm consisting of a number of buildings and shacks.
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Old July 30th, 2012, 11:53 AM   #3980
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Interesting. I assume it includes a new bridge across the Ticino that explains the € 220 million cost.
That's correct. They also have to drain a little lake and cut some woods.

Quote:
By the way there are not "20 houses" to be demolished, but a single farm consisting of a number of buildings and shacks.
The article I linked said so, and reported also that some of the families were already displaced while others aren't
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