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Old August 28th, 2012, 05:39 PM   #4101
Penn's Woods
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Do people say 's-Hertogenbosch or Den Bosch? (Or Bois-le-Duc? )
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Old August 28th, 2012, 05:40 PM   #4102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Nobody in the Netherlands says 's-Gravenhage. It's an archaic name and never used in daily speech. For the Dutch, that city is named Den Haag, which is not too hard.
What about 's-Hertogenbosch? Thank god in Italian it's called Boscoducale, even if it's archaic itself, it's still sometimes used.
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Old August 28th, 2012, 05:42 PM   #4103
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Because it's history, and languages. If you want to ignore both, then we should abolish languages all over the world and replace them with a unified esperanto, volapuk o klingon language.
I will always say "L'Aia", which is simple in my mother tongue, rather than 's-Gravenhage, which I don't know where to start in pronouncing it.
Hear, hear!


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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
What about 's-Hertogenbosch? Thank god in Italian it's called Boscoducale, even if it's archaic itself, it's still sometimes used.
Boscoducale? I love it! See, this is why this stuff is actually fun, at least for weird language and geography geeks like me.

Do you still say "Monaco di Baviera"? (Or is it "...di Bavaria"?)
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Old August 28th, 2012, 05:46 PM   #4104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
What about 's-Hertogenbosch? Thank god in Italian it's called Boscoducale, even if it's archaic itself, it's still sometimes used.
's-Hertogenbosch is used somewhat more than 's-Gravenhage. It's signed as 's-Hertogenbosch on the signs, and that is also the official name, but Den Bosch is chiefly used in daily speech, apart from puritans.
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Old August 28th, 2012, 05:47 PM   #4105
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But The Hague is signed as "Den Haag"?
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Old August 28th, 2012, 05:50 PM   #4106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Do you still say "Monaco di Baviera"? (Or is it "...di Bavaria"?)
Of course, otherwise it could get confused with Monaco the microstate. Someone in Italy pronounce the latter French-style, stressing the last syllable, so "Monacò" and "Mònaco" are pronounced differently and there is no need for "di Baviera", but I guess it's a minority.
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Old August 28th, 2012, 05:57 PM   #4107
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Quote:
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But The Hague is signed as "Den Haag"?
That's right.
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Old August 28th, 2012, 06:58 PM   #4108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I prefer the actual name of the city as well, transliterated if necessary.

Exonyms are fairly random, usually historically grown. For instance in Dutch we don't use exonyms for all but one U.S. state (California). Apparently Georgia and Virginia are no problem to pronounce or write, except for California, which is exonymized to Californië. The worst exonyms in Dutch is in my opinion the elementary school-level of phonetically changing names. For instance Baku > Bakoe, Budapest > Boedapest, though this is by far not consistently done.
i also prefer original names, but only while writing. while speaking (croatian) i would feel stupid not to use croatian names.

btw i am thinking right now and in croatian California is also the only american state with croatian name (Kalifornija).

edit: no, we say Aljaska (Alaska) and Havaji (Hawai). you also have Hawaï in netherlands
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Here in Hungary we very seldom use exonyms (I mean outside the area of historic Hungary). And many Hungarian names are simply the original name with a hungarianized spelling, e.g. Róma for Roma (same pronounciation). There are no more then 6-7 exonyms really in use here, and as far as I know only one of them in Italy (Venezia => Velence).
i had feeling that you use often exonyms. but definitely the weirdest one is Fiume for Rijeka i have never understood why don't you use Folyó (if not Rijeka).
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Old August 28th, 2012, 07:08 PM   #4109
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i also prefer original names, but only while writing. while speaking (croatian) i would feel stupid not to use croatian names.

btw i am thinking right now and in croatian California is also the only american state with croatian name (Kalifornija).

edit: no, we say Aljaska (Alaska) and Havaji (Hawai). you also have Hawaï in netherlands
Not even the North/South/West/New states?

In Italian they are Dakota del Sud/del Nord, Virginia Occidentale, Carolina del Nord/del Sud, Nuovo Messico (but curiously, NOT Nuovo Jersey or Nuovo Hampshire). Sometimes you can also find "Luisiana", but never "Missuri".
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Old August 28th, 2012, 07:20 PM   #4110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Hear, hear!

Boscoducale? I love it! See, this is why this stuff is actually fun, at least for weird language and geography geeks like me.

Do you still say "Monaco di Baviera"? (Or is it "...di Bavaria"?)
I am Italian and it's the first time I hear about Boscoducale referring to 's-Hertogenbosch (Den Bosch).

Then, absolutely forget Bavaria. Bavaria is just the name of a Dutch (and not so good) beer! "Bayern" is "Baviera".

The specification "di Baviera" is due to not be confounded with Monaco, Principality of!

But when you hear about "Monaco" here is usually referred to Munich. If we talk about the Principality of Monaco we'd say "Monte Carlo", the borough where the famous Casino is located!
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Old August 28th, 2012, 07:25 PM   #4111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Not even the North/South/West/New states?

In Italian they are Dakota del Sud/del Nord, Virginia Occidentale, Carolina del Nord/del Sud, Nuovo Messico (but curiously, NOT Nuovo Jersey or Nuovo Hampshire). Sometimes you can also find "Luisiana", but never "Missuri".
And because of this fact Italian translations are getting unused. Only a few people talk about "Nuovo Messico" or other stuffs like this when referring to a state of the USA!

BTW, I also like the original names rather than translated names but when talking to other people I have to use Italian names.
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Old August 28th, 2012, 07:25 PM   #4112
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the weirdest one is Fiume for Rijeka i have never understood why don't you use Folyó (if not Rijeka).
It's totally off topic now, but I answer: it is not weird at all. Fiume had its Italian name and was a free town but belonged to Hungary from 1779 until world war I. In the late 19th and early 20th century Fiume was the greatest port of Hungary, HQ for the Hungarian fleet. But this town has never had a Hungarian name. A great majority of the residents was ethnically Italian but had a significant Hungarian minority.
Usually for all the towns which belonged to Hungary before the Trianon peace treaty (1920) we kept using the name that we used before (that's why I wrote that we have quite a few exonyms, outside the ex-Hungarian area).
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Old August 28th, 2012, 07:30 PM   #4113
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I am Italian and it's the first time I hear about Boscoducale referring to 's-Hertogenbosch (Den Bosch).
Not that Boscoducale or 's-Hertogenbosch are exactly daily material in Italy...

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And because of this fact Italian translations are getting unused. Only a few people talk about "Nuovo Messico" or other stuffs like this when referring to a state of the USA!
I do. I mean, certainly I'm not gonna say "South Dakota". Maybe I won't say "Dakota del Sud", but for sure "Sud Dakota".
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Old August 28th, 2012, 07:36 PM   #4114
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My experience with Italians is that many of them have absolutely no clue how to pronounce English words.
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Old August 28th, 2012, 07:42 PM   #4115
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My experience with Italians is that many of them have absolutely no clue how to pronounce English words.
Correct. Many English sounds do not exist in Italian and people may have difficulties pronouncing them. I surely have.
It depends strongly on the Italian dialect you use to speak. My Sicilian friend cannot pronounce the "th" in "three". He pronounces it like in Sicilian "tria", where "tr" is a sound unique to Sicilian, and not present in Italian (I can't reproduce it).
I have difficulties with vowels, since I come from Central Italy. In Northern Italy they use many more vowel sounds and have less difficulties in that.

Long story short: it's a mess.
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Old August 28th, 2012, 08:05 PM   #4116
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Correct. Many English sounds do not exist in Italian and people may have difficulties pronouncing them. I surely have.
It depends strongly on the Italian dialect you use to speak. My Sicilian friend cannot pronounce the "th" in "three". He pronounces it like in Sicilian "tria", where "tr" is a sound unique to Sicilian, and not present in Italian (I can't reproduce it).
I have difficulties with vowels, since I come from Central Italy. In Northern Italy they use many more vowel sounds and have less difficulties in that.

Long story short: it's a mess.
Exactly! Then languages and dialects in Northern Italy have also the letters Ö and Ü in their alphabet, so when pronouncing for example German names we absolutely have no difficulties in pronouncing them correctly.

The only big problem is that parents and teachers must teach what Umlaut means because some people write northern Italian dialects in the French way (so "oe" for Ö and "ue" for Ü) and some other, like me, prefer the German way, so using a 28 letters alphabet rather than a 26 letters one!

Then to get the correct pronunciation you only have to make training and of course, being well educated for foreign pronouncing during your childhood.

I have no difficulties in correctly pronouncing English, German and French language but for example I lack in quality when pronouncing Dutch language! I really need to train myself.
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Old August 28th, 2012, 08:11 PM   #4117
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The Dutch language is one of the hardest to pronounce correctly. Even well-assimilated immigrants cannot speak it correctly.

For writing, I prefer the endonyms (Firenze, Genova, Roma, Napoli, etc.) however in speech I will use exonyms for the most well-known cities. But for instance Padova (Padua) is hardly ever mentioned in the Netherlands, so if I call it Padova, nobody would think if there may be an exonym for it, just like places like Livorno or Piacenza or Siracusa which do not have an exonym in Dutch.

Some exonyms in the Netherlands have been falling out of use though, especially German and French ones. Almost no Dutch would know what Osnabrugge, Brunswijk, Kales or Atrecht are unless they know it from advanced history classes or something.
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Old August 28th, 2012, 08:11 PM   #4118
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Not even the North/South/West/New states?

In Italian they are Dakota del Sud/del Nord, Virginia Occidentale, Carolina del Nord/del Sud, Nuovo Messico (but curiously, NOT Nuovo Jersey or Nuovo Hampshire). Sometimes you can also find "Luisiana", but never "Missuri".
I've always thought New Jersey should be feminine in Romance languages (since Jersey, believe it or not, comes from Caesarea), but no one seems to agree with me. (I could swear I saw "la New-Jersey" in French years ago, but you don't see it now.) And in keeping with the let-the-native-speakers-make-the-rules principle, what I think doesn't matter....
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Old August 28th, 2012, 08:13 PM   #4119
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"Jersey" the clothing in Italian is masculine:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_%28tessuto%29
you can see in the first line: "Il Jersey..."
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Old August 28th, 2012, 08:15 PM   #4120
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....Almost no Dutch would know what Osnabrugge, Brunswijk, Kales or Atrecht are unless they know it from advanced history classes or something.
I know them....:-)

EDIT: But it's not "Bruinswijk"?
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