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Old August 29th, 2012, 09:19 PM   #4141
italystf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza
Local jurisdictions have more power in Italy than in the Netherlands. And I favor it: in Rome they don't necessarily know what's best for a given town.
It's not always a good thing. It's not fair that a small village blocks a project with national or international relevance, especially if nimbysm is the only reason.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 29th, 2012, 09:23 PM   #4142
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My point precisely.
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Old August 29th, 2012, 09:25 PM   #4143
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
3.75 is the current standard, A10 was built in the 50s/60s. Many old highways don't meet modern construction rules.
I understand that many older highways don't meet current standards. I'm still hoping that someone knows the actual lane width.
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Old August 29th, 2012, 10:09 PM   #4144
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In the Netherlands that would be completely irrelevant. It's outside the mayors jurisdiction. If parliament voted in favor, it should be constructed.


As it should be!
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Old August 30th, 2012, 12:27 AM   #4145
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Ot again. Nobody mentioned "Leghorn"!
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Old August 30th, 2012, 08:36 AM   #4146
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Sooner or later authorities in the central government will shovel the Genova bypass down its mayor's throat, possibly using some working related to its port as a carrot.

It also has a much higher chance of being built merely because it will be toll-financed and traffic on A10 is far higher than over the Messina Strait.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 10:05 AM   #4147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
It's not always a good thing. It's not fair that a small village blocks a project with national or international relevance, especially if nimbysm is the only reason.
Not even the little village of Ripoli, which is sliding (not so) slowly because of the construction of Variante di Valico? People are losing everything they've got.

I think they should immediately stop whatever they're digging there.

I don't like obstructionism, but this is simply too much.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 12:56 PM   #4148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza

Not even the little village of Ripoli, which is sliding (not so) slowly because of the construction of Variante di Valico? People are losing everything they've got.

I think they should immediately stop whatever they're digging there.

I don't like obstructionism, but this is simply too much.
This was a major construction failure, probably related to bad planning. I mean cases when a community opposes a highway or railway that doesn't cause so much harm apart destroying some agricultural lands or pass too close to some houses.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 02:00 PM   #4149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I think they should immediately stop whatever they're digging there.
Stop and do what? 30 years of study? Better to relocate the whole village to a suitable place and keep the works on the tunnels.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 02:01 PM   #4150
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Stop and do what? 30 years of study?
Pretty good studies, those which couldn't foresee a landslide. A serious scientist would trash them and resign.

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Better to relocate the whole village to a suitable place and keep the works on the tunnels.
Landslide is gonna happen whether ther is the village up there or not. Works that generate landslide are to be stopped in any case, you can't know what's gonna happen next.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 03:13 PM   #4151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Stop and do what? 30 years of study? Better to relocate the whole village to a suitable place and keep the works on the tunnels.
We aren't in China or Soviet Union where is routine relocate people where the government wants. In modern democratic countries megaprojects must be eco-friendly and people-friendly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza
Pretty good studies, those which couldn't foresee a landslide. A serious scientist would trash them and resign.
Or maybe they foresaw the landslide but ignored it b/c economic interests were bigger.
Vajont docet.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 03:56 PM   #4152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
We aren't in China or Soviet Union where is routine relocate people where the government wants. In modern democratic countries megaprojects must be eco-friendly and people-friendly.
In democratic countries yes, but Italy is not a democratic country since we have a prime minister that nobody elected and a politician class that nobody wants, very far to be "people-friendly"...
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Old August 30th, 2012, 04:06 PM   #4153
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How's the A12 construction going along the west coast? Is the entire stretch under construction?
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Old August 30th, 2012, 04:20 PM   #4154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84

In democratic countries yes, but Italy is not a democratic country since we have a prime minister that nobody elected and a politician class that nobody wants, very far to be "people-friendly"...
Before Monti the situation wasn't much better. We elected three times a premier who had always be mocked around the world and cared only about his pockets
We had less taxes with Mr. B and company but probably more corruption and a worse image abroad.
This shitty political class started already with the 2nd republic in the early 90s with Craxi and Andreotti, certainly not last autumn with Monti.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle
How's the A12 construction going along the west coast? Is the entire stretch under construction?
AFAIK only the Civitacecchia - Tarquinia section is U/C.
However most of the route is already a dual carriaggeway, so it's not something like 200km of brand new motorway.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

Last edited by italystf; August 30th, 2012 at 04:32 PM.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 05:21 PM   #4155
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
In democratic countries yes, but Italy is not a democratic country since we have a prime minister that nobody elected and a politician class that nobody wants, very far to be "people-friendly"...
OT
Our Republic is a Parliamentary Republic, is not mandatory, and nowhere is wrote in our Constitution, a Prime Minister elected by the people.
EDIT: It would be fair that the PM should be the head of the party that won the elections but is not mandatory...

/OT

Last edited by JB Colbert; August 30th, 2012 at 05:38 PM.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 06:18 PM   #4156
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as seen from Slovenia, Monti's doing a good job.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 06:40 PM   #4157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hofburg
as seen from Slovenia, Monti's doing a good job.
I like very much the idea of deregularization of activities such lawyers, taxi drivers and pharmacies, it's better a open free concurrence system than one founded on exclusive lobbies.

What I dislike it's that he chosed the easiest, but not the more honest ways to get money and save our economy. He increased VAT and fuel excises and he stopped the convertibility in euros of the old lire cash. He should instead enforce more the controls against tax evasion, reduce the huge wages of our politicians and cut off many wastes of public money.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 06:48 PM   #4158
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High pay and pensions of those working in the public sector will be a major problem for governments in the years to come. Public servants have much more luxurious contracts than those working in the private sector.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 06:49 PM   #4159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Before Monti the situation wasn't much better. We elected three times a premier who had always be mocked around the world and cared only about his pockets
We had less taxes with Mr. B and company but probably more corruption and a worse image abroad.
This shitty political class started already with the 2nd republic in the early 90s with Craxi and Andreotti, certainly not last autumn with Monti.
At least with Mr.B nobody had to kill themself as happening now with the "professor" that, btw, he's caring now just of bank's pockets and to be the ass-kisser of Angela Merkel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Colbert
Our Republic is a Parliamentary Republic, is not mandatory, and nowhere is wrote in our Constitution, a Prime Minister elected by the people.
EDIT: It would be fair that the PM should be the head of the party that won the elections but is not mandatory
And what did I say? We are not a democracy since people can't decide own goverment. Democracy= rule of the people. In Italy instead just a bunch of people rule and millions submit themselves to this...
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Old August 30th, 2012, 07:01 PM   #4160
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle
High pay and pensions of those working in the public sector will be a major problem for governments in the years to come. Public servants have much more luxurious contracts than those working in the private sector.
In the 80s we had a disastrous policy to retire workers after 15-20 years of service b/c we "needed to create more workplace for young people". This law was halted soon but we're still paying such people for their entire life.
Public sector is very wasteful and inefficient here, we have far more employees of what we really need. And a lot of employees don't necessarily mean better services. It's almost impossible being fired from the public sector. Even if you're lazy and not competent. You must do very bad things such stealing or harassing someone.

AFAIK the only category that enjoy too high wages and pensions are politicians.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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