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Old August 30th, 2012, 07:07 PM   #4161
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Italy was a long story of relocating communities for infrastructure works or as a result of natural disasters.

We could go back to the almost-worldwide famous city of Ragusa to the many hamlets flooded by hydro power plants built in late 19th Century to a city built-from-scratch city in the 1970s after the largest landslides every registered on Earth from non-volcanic causes swept away three towns and produced a 90m-high tsunami on the Vajont disaster.

Italy also removed and actually improved the housing conditions of many households when the government demolished semi-slums in Genova, Napoli and Bari to make room for highways or other infrastructure.

So if a tiny hamlet is under induced seismic risk, they could relocate the whole community to someplace safe in the same area, pay nice compensation, build new housing of modern standards and let the old town slide away - as long as the underground tunnel is safe, of course.

========

This all being said, the Apennines are dreadful, full of geological surprises. Other tunnels through the mountains, road and rail, also suffered from unexpected problems. And it is not like civil engineering in Italy is paltry or inexperienced, no other country, not even China, has as much road or rail mountain tunnels as Italy.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 09:59 PM   #4162
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Public sector is very wasteful and inefficient here, we have far more employees of what we really need.
The public sector is very wasteful and inefficient everywhere, with far more employees than needed, but I admit it's worse in Italy than in most countries. Hong Kong and Singapore probably have the least wasteful and most efficient public sectors in the world, but even there it's far from the efficiency of the private sector.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 12:08 AM   #4163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling

The public sector is very wasteful and inefficient everywhere, with far more employees than needed, but I admit it's worse in Italy than in most countries. Hong Kong and Singapore probably have the least wasteful and most efficient public sectors in the world, but even there it's far from the efficiency of the private sector.
That's because in such countries the state has more power to fire unneeded or lazy employees than in European liberal democracies. A wasteful public sector is the price of the welfare state and workers' rights.
I don't know much about Honk Kong. Singapore is a very developed and efficient country but on the other hand it has a quite oppressive regime that regularily violates human rights. I wouldn't be happy living there.
I think Scandinavian countries are the best model.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 01:42 AM   #4164
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That's because in such countries the state has more power to fire unneeded or lazy employees than in European liberal democracies. A wasteful public sector is the price of the welfare state and workers' rights.
I think that's a fair, but incomplete assessment. I think the more important reason is that Singapore keeps the public sector small and let's the private sector flourish.

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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Singapore is a very developed and efficient country but on the other hand it has a quite oppressive regime that regularily violates human rights. I wouldn't be happy living there.
I think Scandinavian countries are the best model.
I've lived in Singapore. I feel my rights are much better protected by the government of Singapore than in Scandinavia, where Julian Assange faces jail for engaging in consensual sex -- because he didn't wear a condom. Of course, we all know that's not the real reason why the Swedish government wants to put him in prison.

BTW, Singapore has a great system for keeping the road free from excessive congestion. On the one hand, Singapore has one of the best public transport systems in the world. On the other hand, Singapore limits the number of cars that can be newly registered each year and auctions off the rights to add the cars to road.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 02:14 AM   #4165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling
I think that's a fair, but incomplete assessment. I think the more important reason is that Singapore keeps the public sector small and let's the private sector flourish.
You can say the same about the USA, but I don't think they're a good model. Too much people living in poverty compared to other first-world countries. Too much racial segregation and gang violence. No health care for everybody. Too many powerful lobbies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling
BTW, Singapore has a great system for keeping the road free from excessive congestion. On the one hand, Singapore has one of the best public transport systems in the world. On the other hand, Singapore limits the number of cars that can be newly registered each year and auctions off the rights to add the cars to road.
Isn't limiting the ownership of private cars a bit of contraddiction for a country that is founded on the economical freedom?
And how can we justify the istitutionalized use of caning not just against real criminals but also to punish kids at school? Under this aspect isn't much different from Iran.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 02:34 AM   #4166
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You can say the same about the USA, but I don't think they're a good model. Too much people living in poverty compared to other first-world countries. Too much racial segregation and gang violence. No health care for everybody. Too many powerful lobbies.
Poverty is next to non-existant in Singapore. The racial violence of the 1960s appears to have been overcome. Health care is heavily subsidized and affordable, without the bureaucracy and waiting lists of western european socialist medicine or the rampant cash bribery to get any care from eastern european socialist medicine. Lobbies in Scandinavia are much worse than in Singapore.

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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Isn't limiting the ownership of private cars a bit of contraddiction for a country that is founded on the economical freedom?
And how can we justify the istitutionalized use of caning not just against real criminals but also to punish kids at school? Under this aspect isn't much different from Iran.
Everyone in Singapore is free to buy a car, but with that comes the responsibility to pay the costs of adding a car to the road. Why should car ownership be subsidized by the majority who choose public transport?
I never knew anyone in Singapore who was caned in school. It's difficult to imagine what sort of atrocious criminal behaviour might lead to that.
You're comparing Iran and Singapore??? Seriously? Iran is the leading holocaust denier, the leading sponsor of terrorism, doesn't allow women to study, supports beheading people for "blasphemy", etc., etc. Singapore is admittedly extremely strict in enforcing drug prohibition and is strict in punishing violent crime, but that doesn't make it anything like Iran.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 10:15 AM   #4167
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Buying a car in Singapore is very expensive, but fuel and parking is rather cheap.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 10:15 AM   #4168
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Back to the roads, please?
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Old August 31st, 2012, 01:39 PM   #4169
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Stop and do what? 30 years of study? Better to relocate the whole village to a suitable place and keep the works on the tunnels.
There you go again. What nonsense!
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Old August 31st, 2012, 03:35 PM   #4170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
...
And what did I say? We are not a democracy since people can't decide own goverment. Democracy= rule of the people. In Italy instead just a bunch of people rule and millions submit themselves to this...
What you wrote doesn’t have the same meaning.

What you are trying to demonstrate is that our Republic System is not democratic, if compared to the other developed countries.

According to your theory, i.e. the PM elected by the people, neither the UK, German nor Spanish republics are democratic systems; in those countries the PM is the head of the winning party.

The US system is not a democratic system too, since the (US) President is elected by the delegates of the 50 States...

Sorry again for the OT, it was my last one...
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Old August 31st, 2012, 04:04 PM   #4171
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neither the UK, German nor Spanish republics
What are UK and Spanish republics?
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 04:12 PM   #4172
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An acquaintance of mine is bitching all over his facebook about a TUTOR fine. He's a bit dumb though. He believed some crap Twitter account allegedly fed by an "insider" of traffic law enforcement saying Tutor was deactivated on A1 near Piacenza for maintenance. Result: fine for average speed of 153 km/h which he posted on his facebook.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 04:15 PM   #4173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
What are UK and Spanish republics?
Ops!
You're right .
I meant Systems, instead of Republic...
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Old August 31st, 2012, 04:18 PM   #4174
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Enough, or you'll force me to explain the Electoral College!

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I didn't vote for him....

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Old August 31st, 2012, 04:21 PM   #4175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist
An acquaintance of mine is bitching all over his facebook about a TUTOR fine. He's a bit dumb though. He believed some crap Twitter account allegedly fed by an "insider" of traffic law enforcement saying Tutor was deactivated on A1 near Piacenza for maintenance. Result: fine for average speed of 153 km/h which he posted on his facebook.
If he's so stupid, he deserves it.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 04:24 PM   #4176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Colbert View Post
What you wrote doesn’t have the same meaning.

What you are trying to demonstrate is that our Republic System is not democratic, if compared to the other developed countries.

According to your theory, i.e. the PM elected by the people, neither the UK, German nor Spanish republics are democratic systems; in those countries the PM is the head of the winning party.
Winning party elected by the people. Monti wasn't elected by people according to his electoral, this is anti-democratic. If you know the Democracy Index by The Economist, you should know the Italy in 2011 was classified at the 31 place as "imperfect democracy", even Cape Verde and Mauritius are better classified than us. Much worse if we take exam the press freedom, an essential element for the democracy; Italy classified "partial free" and like always, the last of the developed countries. Useless to say that at the first places of these charts are always Norway, Iceland, Denmark... countries that are really free and democratic.....
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Old August 31st, 2012, 05:09 PM   #4177
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Winning party elected by the people. Monti wasn't elected by people according to his electoral, this is anti-democratic. If you know the Democracy Index by The Economist, you should know the Italy in 2011 was classified at the 31 place as "imperfect democracy", even Cape Verde and Mauritius are better classified than us. Much worse if we take exam the press freedom, an essential element for the democracy; Italy classified "partial free" and like always, the last of the developed countries. Useless to say that at the first places of these charts are always Norway, Iceland, Denmark... countries that are really free and democratic.....
I can't avoid you to feel less free than people of Capo Verde or Mauritius.
But I want underline that nobody comes during the night at your home, pick up you or your parents and lead to prison, only because you are using internet.
Nobody is stopping you from speaking with more than 3 people in a public place.
Nobody can prohibit you to buy the Gazzetta dello Sport.
Nobody can prohibit you to masturbate with the Democracy Index by The Economist...

During the election day you vote for a party, the day after they can choose who they want to be the PM, even a horse or donkey.
Man you must study our Constitution...

But remember that even the other european democratic systems works at same way, more or less.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 05:13 PM   #4178
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The Netherlands doesn't elect its prime-minister either. Usually the number one on the list of the largest governing party becomes prime-minister. However, some ministers (such as the minister of transportation in the Netherlands) cannot be elected, but is asked by the party to become minister.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 05:22 PM   #4179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Colbert

I can't avoid you to feel less free than people of Capo Verde or Mauritius.
But I want underline that nobody comes during the night at your home, pick up you or your parents and lead to prison, only because you are using internet.
Nobody is stopping you from speaking with more than 3 people in a public place.
Nobody can prohibit you to buy the Gazzetta dello Sport.
Nobody can prohibit you to masturbate with the Democracy Index by The Economist...

During the election day you vote for a party, the day after they can choose who they want to be the PM, even a horse or donkey.
Man you must study our Constitution...

But remember that even the other european democratic systems works at same way, more or less.
But in other democratic countries the premier never controlled all the biggest national TV channels, neither made laws "ad personam" to protect himself and his friends from legal prosecutions nor attack the justice system saying that anti-corruption judges are like the KGB.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 05:25 PM   #4180
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This is another question, although I agree with you, and although nobody can prohibit him to win elections.
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