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Old September 12th, 2012, 10:19 AM   #4361
JB Colbert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
JB, I drove 1800 km over the weekend (Brescia-Terracina-Salerno-Cava de'Tirreni-Terracina-Brescia) and I met countless people driving recklessly and doing every kind of stupid and dangerous stuff. It's not about stereotypes, it's reality. Yes, you must have been very lucky.
Maybe we just don't agree on what is "reckless". To me, even overtaking without signaling is being reckless. And in Italy, nobody uses his blinkers...
...
Which kind of stupid stuff?
It's a bit generic your statement.

I agree that, probably, we don't agree on "reckless" definition.

In my opinion reckless is to arrive, at high speed, at 20 cm from me, while I'm overtaking another car, like that stupid people I met up on in Germany last July, on the A5 between Karlsruhe and Freiburg, a section without speed limits.
I was overtaking a car at 140km/h and a "gentleman" (certainly not italian) arrived, I suppose, at least at 160Km/h very close to me.
Or driving above the speed limits in the road work area, and the italians in this case are world and olimpic champions...

Overtaking without signaling could be reckless but if the distance is appropriate you can manage easily; but, even in this case, in my experience I met few people don't using the signaling.
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Old September 12th, 2012, 10:36 AM   #4362
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Which kind of stupid stuff? Just some examples:
- While I'm overtaking a truck (who's overtaking another truck), in third lane, at 130 km/h, a Audi comes behind me at full speed (must have been 200), brakes and flashes its light furiously, trying to pass between me and the truck, and when my overtake was done passes me on the right, while I was beginning to come back to the second lane and risking a collision;
- on 1+1 roads with overtake ban, overtaking me, going in the other lane while other cars are coming and thus re-entering just inches in front of me, braking and making me brake at the last second (countless times);
- on motorway ramps, people merging without even looking in their mirrors, and when cars come in the first lane - and cannot for some reasons pass in the second lane - forcing them to brake;
- a variation of the previous one, people trying to overtake while you're overtaking them, forcing you to brake at full speed;
- 1+1 roads, especially with curves, people from the opposite direction cutting the curve and invading your lane (especially made by bikers), forcing you to brake and dribble them, risking a collision with the wall beside the road;
- people so eager to overtake you, especially on 1+1 road, that comes within inches from your back, forcing you NOT to brake for any reason (otherwise they'll collide with you).

There are many more, but this is just a sample. Obviously I was a (passive) player in all these.

EDIT: I don't find driving above speed limits in roadwork areas reckless, because the roadwork area speed limit is ridiculous (40 km/h)... you cannot really expect to go from 130 to 40 where there are two lanes, maybe only a little off their normal track, or a little narrower. It's much more dangerous. In roadwork areas I go 90-100 and I find it a good compromise.
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Old September 12th, 2012, 10:48 AM   #4363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Colbert

Which kind of stupid stuff?
It's a bit generic your statement.

I agree that, probably, we don't agree on "reckless" definition.

In my opinion reckless is to arrive, at high speed, at 20 cm from me, while I'm overtaking another car, like that stupid people I met up on in Germany last July, on the A5 between Karlsruhe and Freiburg, a section without speed limits.
I was overtaking a car at 140km/h and a "gentleman" (certainly not italian) arrived, I suppose, at least at 160Km/h very close to me.
Or driving above the speed limits in the road work area, and the italians in this case are world and olimpic champions...

Overtaking without signaling could be reckless but if the distance is appropriate you can manage easily; but, even in this case, in my experience I met few people don't using the signaling.
You don't think that a lot of Italians, especially the ones in the south have a slight problem in behaving themselves on the roads in comparison to other countries in western Europe?
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Old September 12th, 2012, 01:04 PM   #4364
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Talking about updating road signs, in the streets around Terracina and Gaeta I found a lot of signs pointing at autostrada A2 Roma-Napoli... that stopped existing 24 years ago...

Last edited by g.spinoza; September 12th, 2012 at 01:13 PM.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 12:53 AM   #4365
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How much of that traffic goes to (southern) Verona? As I can see, there's just one interchange on the A4 (Verona sud), I guess most traffic uses the parallel expressway.
If you're coming from Trento and are headed to South or East Verona, you still exit at Verona Nord and then take the expressway which runs along a22 and then a4 until Verona Est. Or, if it's not rush hour, you drive thru the city (from Verona Nord there's an expressway that leads you to the city center). The "ring" expressway has more exits than the A4 and these exits serve better the residential areas, whereas the Verona Sud A4 exit serves an industrial area and is better suitable for reaching the city center through Viale del Lavoro. For these reasons, almost no one would stay on the highway if headed to East or South Verona. The expressway works fine and you rarely find queues.

There is currently a project for the northern espressway plus a road tunnel under the hills, which would complete the ring (tangenziale ovest, sud and est already exist).



You might have already discussed about it. I personally don't like it because it would be seen as a toll-free, convenient freeway for trucks and vehicles driving from Brenner to Venice and viceversa.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 01:00 AM   #4366
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You don't think that a lot of Italians, especially the ones in the south have a slight problem in behaving themselves on the roads in comparison to other countries in western Europe?
You are partly right. But on the other hand many foreigners seem to consider Italy as a rule-free happy land, because "if the italians don't respect rules, why should we do?" I drive on the A4 between Verona and Padova almost on a weekly basis and one reckless driver out of two is not italian.

I don't know enough about southern Italy. In (northern) Italy I usually have problems driving in big cities, but I wouldn't say italian highways are that bad. It's just that we care about different things. In Italy most people don't stop at pedestrian crossings, in France they do, but they are generally more aggressive and driving on the French highways was quite bad for me. Croatia and Slovenia didn't look like a driving paradise either, even though I know they like to complain about the status of italian highways...
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Last edited by Fab87; September 14th, 2012 at 01:14 AM.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 01:21 AM   #4367
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you mean what I complained? lane hogging isn't something unique to some country, but just bad driving habit in general. In Slovenia some people still drive too fast, although it's much better than it was before.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 01:33 AM   #4368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fab87 View Post
You might have already discussed about it. I personally don't like it because it would be seen as a toll-free, convenient freeway for trucks and vehicles driving from Brenner to Venice and viceversa.
But you'd have to leave the uninterrupted toll system; as if you drove on the old Tangenziale di Mestre. But yes, some people would do that.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 01:36 AM   #4369
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you mean what I complained? lane hogging isn't something unique to some country, but just bad driving habit in general. In Slovenia some people still drive too fast, although it's much better than it was before.
I was not referring to you in particular, I have 5-6 croatian friends (so, not your cup of tea ) and we discussed about it, and I remember other users complaining about it here.
I know Slovenia and Croatia improved a lot on before, I remember Istria in 1997 and it was a nightmare, a lot of extremely dangerous overtakings and road signs were terrible. Italy on the contrary is not improving very much, even though the Tutor has done a great job as for the speed limits.
I migh be accostumed to lane hogging (even though i don't do it myself) more than you, so that i get more sensitive about speed or aggressivity rather than this. The biggest hassle on italian highways is to me when trucks overtake each other.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 01:41 AM   #4370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
But you'd have to leave the uninterrupted toll system; as if you drove on the old Tangenziale di Mestre. But yes, some people would do that.
That would be quite bad for the people from Verona: should the eastern espressway become a toll road, they would stop using it. Actually the plan is to have a toll only for the driving trough the tunnel, even though it's not clear if it will be possible for the local people to buy a vignette like the "telepass" to avoid toll booth queing.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 02:16 AM   #4371
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The biggest hassle on italian highways is to me when trucks overtake each other.
That happens all the time here.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 10:07 AM   #4372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Which kind of stupid stuff? Just some examples:
- While I'm overtaking a truck (who's overtaking another truck), in third lane, at 130 km/h, a Audi comes behind me at full speed (must have been 200), brakes and flashes its light furiously, trying to pass between me and the truck, and when my overtake was done passes me on the right, while I was beginning to come back to the second lane and risking a collision;
- on 1+1 roads with overtake ban, overtaking me, going in the other lane while other cars are coming and thus re-entering just inches in front of me, braking and making me brake at the last second (countless times);
- on motorway ramps, people merging without even looking in their mirrors, and when cars come in the first lane - and cannot for some reasons pass in the second lane - forcing them to brake;
- a variation of the previous one, people trying to overtake while you're overtaking them, forcing you to brake at full speed;
- 1+1 roads, especially with curves, people from the opposite direction cutting the curve and invading your lane (especially made by bikers), forcing you to brake and dribble them, risking a collision with the wall beside the road;
- people so eager to overtake you, especially on 1+1 road, that comes within inches from your back, forcing you NOT to brake for any reason (otherwise they'll collide with you).

There are many more, but this is just a sample. Obviously I was a (passive) player in all these.

EDIT: I don't find driving above speed limits in roadwork areas reckless, because the roadwork area speed limit is ridiculous (40 km/h)... you cannot really expect to go from 130 to 40 where there are two lanes, maybe only a little off their normal track, or a little narrower. It's much more dangerous. In roadwork areas I go 90-100 and I find it a good compromise.
Usually the speed limits in roadworks area set to 60-80 km/h, rarely at 40 when the road is narrow.
If you consider ridiculous these speed limits another one could consider ridiculous the overtake ban on a rectilinear 1+1 road, isn't?

I know that Italy is not a road paradise , but it is not even hell.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 10:16 AM   #4373
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Originally Posted by JB Colbert View Post
Usually the speed limits in roadworks area set to 60-80 km/h, rarely at 40 when the road is narrow.
If you consider ridiculous these speed limits another one could consider ridiculous the overtake ban on a rectilinear 1+1 road, isn't?
No, they're very different and you know it. Going 80 in a roadwork area is not going to kill anyone. Overtaking when it's not possible is.

Quote:
I know that Italy is not a road paradise , but it is not even hell.
I never said that. Possibly if I go to South Africa or Argentina (I don't know, I chose two countries random) it's worse. But since I'll never drive there, I consider Italy my driving hell, for now.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 11:01 AM   #4374
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No, they're very different and you know it. Going 80 in a roadwork area is not going to kill anyone. Overtaking when it's not possible is.
Are you sure?!?
As you know, in Italy we say "to make two weight and two misures", I don't know how I could translate better in english.
In a roadwork area could happen everythng, for example a truck that have to enter into (or exit from) a closed traffic lane; raw construction material could falls accidentaly over the traffic lane; roadworkers very close to the traffic lane, and so on.
In these cases accident could happen easily, and as much as easily killing anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
...
I never said that. Possibly if I go to South Africa or Argentina (I don't know, I chose two countries random) it's worse. But since I'll never drive there, I consider Italy my driving hell, for now.
Everyone has to pay for his own punishment... Probably your punishment is light

PS
I respect always speed limits and never overtake when is prohibited.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 11:08 AM   #4375
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Originally Posted by JB Colbert View Post
Are you sure?!?
As you know, in Italy we say "to make two weight and two misures", I don't know how I could translate better in english.
In a roadwork area could happen everythng, for example a truck that have to enter into (or exit from) a closed traffic lane; raw construction material could falls accidentaly over the traffic lane; roadworkers very close to the traffic lane, and so on.
In these cases accident could happen easily, and as much as easily killing anyone.
You know what, you're right. I always respect limits, even when there are roadworks on a motorway and 80 km/h limit. But I'm not gonna go 40 in a motorway roadwork area, it's simply too dangerous. That would for sure cause me troubles. I prefer going a little faster there than having my back rammed, which is going to happen with 100% probability in that case.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 11:10 AM   #4376
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Do you keep to the far right unless overtaking? Even on 2x3 lane motorways?

(Colbert)
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Old September 14th, 2012, 11:15 AM   #4377
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Me even on 2x4. That's why I often "overtake" lonely vehicles on third lane.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 11:23 AM   #4378
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Do you keep to the far right unless overtaking? Even on 2x3 lane motorways?

(Colbert)
Always. In Italy it's quite easy, since second and third lanes are jammed while the first one (of course only during truck ban) is deserted.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 11:25 AM   #4379
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Do you keep to the far right unless overtaking? Even on 2x3 lane motorways?

(Colbert)
Always.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 11:40 AM   #4380
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Ah, ok, only now I see Road_UK's question was intended to JB Colbert.
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