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Old December 14th, 2012, 02:27 PM   #4681
g.spinoza
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3rd lane works for Autostrada del Brennero (A22) between Modena and Verona have been approved and financed. They are going to begin in 2014.
http://www.lestradedellinformazione....mento2523.html
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Old December 14th, 2012, 03:32 PM   #4682
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That's funny. I have always found the stretch between Verona and Trento busier.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 03:50 PM   #4683
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of course it's much easier to stick the 3rd lane Modena-Verona than Verona-Trento.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 03:59 PM   #4684
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Of course, but every time I join the A22 from the A1, I always get this relieved feeling over me to be rid of that busy lane hogging traffic.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 04:07 PM   #4685
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I think they could push a project to make A22 double-decked between Trento and Verona. There is barely any space for widening, but double-decking would be an interesting (and fun to drive on) solution. They could even make a second 2x2 upper deck meant for light vehicles only.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 04:18 PM   #4686
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Road_UK's right, Verona-Modena is not the busiest stretch, but for sure is the easiest to enlarge, since there is already space for the 3rd lane in the grassy median. However, the 1+ km long viaduct over river Po has to be torn down and replaced, while the somewhat shorter viaduct over Fissero-Tartaro will be just enlarged in situ.

As for suburbanist's proposal, I think costs will be just... astronomical, and I don't think it can be seriously taken into consideration.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 05:29 PM   #4687
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Besides, most of the congestion between Trento and Verona is due to Affi junction, where people coming from North and heading West onto A4 exit the motorway, pay the toll, and enter superstrada SS 450 towards Peschiera del Garda through two absurd roundabouts.
The only thing to do here is transform SS 450 into a motorway leg, directly connected to A22 and A4 (much like Fiorenzuola A21 leg, once a superstrada, now connects directly A21 and A1). There were plans to do so almost a decade ago, but the projects was attached to a northward extension of SS 450 until Pai, with a tunnel under Monte Baldo and - guess what - environmentalists blocked everything.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #4688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
However, the 1+ km long viaduct over river Po has to be torn down and replaced, while the somewhat shorter viaduct over Fissero-Tartaro will be just enlarged in situ.
I think they can close the 3rd lane before the viaduct and add it back on after without too much risk of congestion. There are more motorways in Italy and the rest of Europe with this kind of setup.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 05:52 PM   #4689
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
I think they can close the 3rd lane before the viaduct and add it back on after without too much risk of congestion. There are more motorways in Italy and the rest of Europe with this kind of setup.
Are you sure? I know of viaducts with no shoulder, but I've never seen a 3-lane road going 2-lane on a viaduct and 3-lane again after that. This kind of configuration will result in a major bottleneck (just like 3rd lane ends just before Rimini on A14, creating long queues..)
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Old December 14th, 2012, 05:57 PM   #4690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza
However, the 1+ km long viaduct over river Po has to be torn down and replaced
Why not build a new, narrow, viaduct next to the existing one and use the old one for a direction and the new one for the other?
They should do the same with the viaduct over Tagliamento on A4 (that will be turned from 2+2 no shoulders from 3+3 with shoulders).
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Old December 14th, 2012, 05:58 PM   #4691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK

I think they can close the 3rd lane before the viaduct and add it back on after without too much risk of congestion. There are more motorways in Italy and the rest of Europe with this kind of setup.
It's also dangerous and would need lower speed limits where the 3rd lane ends.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 06:07 PM   #4692
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Why not build a new, narrow, viaduct next to the existing one and use the old one for a direction and the new one for the other?
They should do the same with the viaduct over Tagliamento on A4 (that will be turned from 2+2 no shoulders from 3+3 with shoulders).
I don't know, I'm not an engineer. Maybe they calculated that old pylons could not withstand the added weight.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 06:14 PM   #4693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza

I don't know, I'm not an engineer. Maybe they calculated that old pylons could not withstand the added weight.
Why? If it currently can carry 4 lanes (2+2) why it won't be able to carry only 3 lanes (in the same direction) in the future?
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 06:20 PM   #4694
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Yes but the actual viaducts are two, and they are apart: to make them function as one, the gap between them must be filled. Maybe, for some reasons I don't know, they can't do that.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 06:24 PM   #4695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza
Yes but the actual viaducts are two, and they are apart: to make them function as one, the gap between them must be filled. Maybe, for some reasons I don't know, they can't do that.
Sorry, I forgot that the two carriaggeways aren't contiguous there. It's a long time since I drove there the last time.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 06:26 PM   #4696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Sorry, I forgot that the two carriaggeways aren't contiguous there. It's a long time since I drove there the last time.
They're not that far:

http://goo.gl/maps/q8jvA

but again, maybe there are engineering problems I don't know.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 06:39 PM   #4697
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This particular section of A22 opened in 1971, so I assume the bridge is somewhat better designed than 1960s bridges (a major issue in Germany currently). The shoulder on the bridge appears to be a tad too narrow to be used as a third lane.

It's not impossible to joint bridges together and use it with 3 lanes one way. Another less common option is to separate the carriageway and use a 2+1 setup in one direction, though this is generally not preferred. There are two locations in the Netherlands where this occurs.

Unfortunately there is no traffic data of Italian motorways, so it's hard to judge what not widening these bridges would mean to traffic flow.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 06:54 PM   #4698
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Aiscat has some data:
http://www.aiscat.it/pubblicazioni/d...im3-4_2011.pdf

(Although I don't know how to read them )

Last edited by g.spinoza; December 14th, 2012 at 07:00 PM.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 06:59 PM   #4699
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View from Tangenziale di Torino. The highest peak is the "Monviso" (About 3.800 meters high)

Excellent view. I really like it!
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Old December 14th, 2012, 07:00 PM   #4700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
That is what many toll road operators publish, the amount of trips within a given range (for example 290.000 trips on a 200 kilometer stretch of road).

Unfortunately such data is useless to judge whether a road has adequate capacity or not. You need more detailed data for that, preferrably the number of vehicles between every single exit.

If I had to guess the traffic volumes for individual sections of the A22, I'd say it's within the 50.000 - 70.000 range. If it's 50.000, a 2x2 bridge won't create traffic congestion, but if it's 70.000 with some growth, it will reach capacity pretty soon. Additionally, the truck share is also an important factor, and summer volumes are also pretty important because seasonal variation is more pronounced in southern Europe and Scandinavia than in central/northwestern Europe.
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