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Old December 14th, 2012, 07:06 PM   #4701
g.spinoza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
That is what many toll road operators publish, the amount of trips within a given range (for example 290.000 trips on a 200 kilometer stretch of road).

Unfortunately such data is useless to judge whether a road has adequate capacity or not. You need more detailed data for that, preferrably the number of vehicles between every single exit.
That's what I suspected as well. It's a shame.

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If I had to guess the traffic volumes for individual sections of the A22, I'd say it's within the 50.000 - 70.000 range. If it's 50.000, a 2x2 bridge won't create traffic congestion, but if it's 70.000 with some growth, it will reach capacity pretty soon. Additionally, the truck share is also an important factor, and summer volumes are also pretty important because seasonal variation is more pronounced in southern Europe and Scandinavia than in central/northwestern Europe.

A technical question about capacity and congestion: you are talking about 2 lane brigde vs 3 lane bridge, as if they stand on their own. I think the issue should be more about the carriageway narrowing (going from 3 to 2) than the capacity tout court. I mean people drive differently on a 2-laned stretch of motorway or on a 3-laned-turning-2-laned stretch. It's there where the problems arise (people merging at the last second, and so on).

Is this correct or am I missing something?
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Old December 14th, 2012, 07:14 PM   #4702
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The impact of driver's behavior varies by country, but is often exaggerated in people's perception, studies have shown that it affects highway capacity in the order of a few percent. However, a reduction from 3 to 2 lanes means there is 30% less capacity. That is the main factor.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 07:29 PM   #4703
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Originally Posted by legolego View Post


View from Tangenziale di Torino. The highest peak is the "Monviso" (About 3.800 meters high)

3841 m to be precise. very nice!
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Old December 14th, 2012, 07:30 PM   #4704
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One alternative would be using the two (structurally) existing bridges in one direction and building a new bridge in the other.

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Besides, most of the congestion between Trento and Verona is due to Affi junction, where people coming from North and heading West onto A4 exit the motorway, pay the toll, and enter superstrada SS 450 towards Peschiera del Garda through two absurd roundabouts.
When there were queues for the toll station there, I used just to go on A22 and drive the extra kms.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 07:32 PM   #4705
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
When there were queues for the toll station there, I used just to go on A22 and drive the extra kms.
I did that too, but in the summer it's not unusual to see the queue at the toll station arriving well into the first motorway lane.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 07:43 PM   #4706
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Sorry, I forgot that the two carriaggeways aren't contiguous there. It's a long time since I drove there the last time.
Lol, isn't that your only motorway to the rest of Italy?
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Old December 14th, 2012, 08:41 PM   #4707
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Lol, isn't that your only motorway to the rest of Italy?
Not at that place. There are A13 and A21 nearby
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Old December 14th, 2012, 09:59 PM   #4708
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Oops, I thought he was talking about A4 over Tagliamento.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 11:07 PM   #4709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso
Oops, I thought he was talking about A4 over Tagliamento.
I was saying that it's a long time I don't drive on the A22 Verona - Modena.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 11:10 PM   #4710
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I've never driven there, so I understand you.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 11:23 PM   #4711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso
I've never driven there, so I understand you.
We need to cross this bridge only if our destination is somewhere between Mantova and Modena (I went few times to meet friends in Guastalla).
If we want to go south or even just to Modena or Reggio Emilia A14-A13-A1 is shorter.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 04:51 PM   #4712
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Today in Monza, near Milan, ANAS opened its worksite for the public to see the works of SS36 tunnel, which is going to be the (one of the) longest urban tunnels in Europe (1,8km in length). Open is scheduled for March 2013.

Two-tube tunnel will have 3 lanes per direction plus a narrow (90 cm) shoulder, and is going to receive 100k vehicles per day. Current stretch above ground will be used for local traffic only.

Some pictures here:
http://www.lestradedellinformazione....98.1.10.1.html

Last edited by g.spinoza; December 15th, 2012 at 05:11 PM.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 06:26 PM   #4713
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What do you mean by one of the longest urban tunnels in Europe?
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Old December 15th, 2012, 06:29 PM   #4714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
What do you mean by one of the longest urban tunnels in Europe?
Er, I mean it's a tunnel, in an urban (non-motorway) context, and - at least quoting the ANAS press release, is going to be one of the longest in Europe.

What's confusing?
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Old December 15th, 2012, 08:59 PM   #4715
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They forgot the Giovanni XXIII (2,9 km), Södra länken (4,7 km), the Big Dig (5,6 km), the A86 Duplex tunnels and many others (the M30 in Madrid, the Dublin Port Tunnel, ...).

[email protected]: the Big Dig is clearly not in Europe...
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Old December 15th, 2012, 10:32 PM   #4716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo
They forgot the Giovanni XXIII (2,9 km), Södra länken (4,7 km), the Big Dig (5,6 km), the A86 Duplex tunnels and many others (the M30 in Madrid, the Dublin Port Tunnel, ...).
Big dig in Europe?
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 01:01 PM   #4717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
the A86 Duplex tunnels and many others (the M30 in Madrid, the Dublin Port Tunnel, ...).

[email protected]: the Big Dig is clearly not in Europe...
Duplex A86 is clearly not urban but motorway. And I said (one of the) longest . They also forgot the 2.7km tunnel under Lecco, on the same road (SS36).
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Old December 16th, 2012, 01:33 PM   #4718
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Okay. Maybe we just have different definitions of urban tunnels, A86 is an urban tunnel for me, for instance.

In any case, that is a nice project. Now if they only build more tunnels in Milano to speed up city traffic
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Old December 16th, 2012, 01:44 PM   #4719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Okay. Maybe we just have different definitions of urban tunnels, A86 is an urban tunnel for me, for instance.
It seems that ANAS likes to brag even when it hasn't the right to do so

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In any case, that is a nice project. Now if they only build more tunnels in Milano to speed up city traffic
Yes, urban tunnels are nice and useful but don't think that Milan's going that way. In fact this tunnel is outside Milan, in a long-distance road (Milano-Lecco and beyond).
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Old December 16th, 2012, 02:07 PM   #4720
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Bridge over Po river on A22 looks OK, but as seen from Google Streetview
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.0...227.76,,0,8.18
it is hard to widen it for a reasonable price because of construction technique that was used widely at that time. As it is over 40 years old and a capital object with design flaws, it is better to demolish it and construct completely new one.
If the bridge won't be some architectural extravaganza (shouldn't be in the middle of fields but you never know) then it also won't be expensive.
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