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Old December 31st, 2012, 04:18 PM   #4841
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I have never driven there, just on SS214 once at night.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 04:23 PM   #4842
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Sorry, I misunderstood. I though Suburbanist was talking to put bollards on the entire lenght. On the non-overtaking sections (in curves and near junctions) is right.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

Last edited by italystf; December 31st, 2012 at 04:38 PM.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 04:25 PM   #4843
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(misunderstood)
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Old December 31st, 2012, 04:27 PM   #4844
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I don't like 1+1 expressways. SS 690 Sora-Avezzano is a nightmare to drive when stuck behind a truck. People tend to think they're on a 4-lane expressway and overtake recklessly.
yeah, I drove that road and i agree.

i also drove on SS76/SS3 Serra San Quirico - Fossato di Vico - Foligno. probably the same problem if there are lorries on the road (when i drove there, the lorry traffic was banned so it was wonderful drive)
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Old December 31st, 2012, 04:33 PM   #4845
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yeah, I drove that road and i agree.

i also drove on SS76/SS3 Serra San Quirico - Fossato di Vico - Foligno. probably the same problem if there are lorries on the road (when i drove there, the lorry traffic was banned so it was wonderful drive)
SS76 Serra San Quirico-Fossato will be a full 2x2 expressway in 2015. Works are ongoing now, major piece of engineering being the northbound "Gola della Rossa" tunnel, 3.7 km in length.

SS3 Fossato-Foligno is a 1+1 expressway (except for the initial stretch which is under construction, linking to SS 318 which is a 2x2 expressway) and has horrible asphalt
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Old December 31st, 2012, 04:39 PM   #4846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza
(misunderstood)
Fixed
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 04:48 PM   #4847
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SS76 Serra San Quirico-Fossato will be a full 2x2 expressway in 2015. Works are ongoing now, major piece of engineering being the northbound "Gola della Rossa" tunnel, 3.7 km in length.

SS3 Fossato-Foligno is a 1+1 expressway (except for the initial stretch which is under construction, linking to SS 318 which is a 2x2 expressway) and has horrible asphalt
i was there in 2008. SS76 was already being widened to 2+2 (Fabriano bypass).
SS3 was in so-so condition. average quality. probably it has not been maintained since that time. i remember bad and bumpy dilatations on viaducts (and there are few quite long viaducts). for instance, the quality of that road was waaaay better than E45 Perugia - Terni, which was disaster.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 05:05 PM   #4848
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Agreed, but that's not the point. It's not a superstrada.

Besides, there is no single 5+ km tunnel on that road. Pisogne bypass is made up of two 2.5km tunnels with a brief open space in between.
Just finished. Opening soon. It's the Sellero tunnel.


http://www.mi-lorenteggio.com/news/21801
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Old December 31st, 2012, 05:17 PM   #4849
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Just finished. Opening soon. It's the Sellero tunnel.


http://www.mi-lorenteggio.com/news/21801
This is SS 42 del Tonale, not SS 510 Sebina Orientale. Sellero tunnel is 35 km beyond the end of SS 510.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 05:20 PM   #4850
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This is SS 42 del Tonale, not SS 510 Sebina Orientale. Sellero tunnel is 35 km beyond the end of SS 510.
Oops. Same thing to me. It's the road to mt roots. Plus, if i am not wrong, it was originally planned as SS42bis, but that could be wrong...
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Old December 31st, 2012, 10:35 PM   #4851
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Apparently you need to be escorted by police officers in Genova.

Street View in old town Genova
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Old December 31st, 2012, 10:43 PM   #4852
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Apparently you need to be escorted by police officers in Genova.

Street View in old town Genova
You mean because it's particularly easy to get lost? It is if you need to find an exact place in the old town, otherwise it's easy - uphill or downhill
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Old December 31st, 2012, 11:06 PM   #4853
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That are is outright blighted and unhealthy, and should have no permanent population (to save the buildings) OR should be demolished and rebuilt (to save its inhabited character). I'd keep a handful of blocks (20% of the area) as an open air museum and tear down the rest to replace it with modern buildings.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 11:12 PM   #4854
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That are is outright blighted and unhealthy, and should have no permanent population (to save the buildings) OR should be demolished and rebuilt (to save its inhabited character). I'd keep a handful of blocks (20% of the area) as an open air museum and tear down the rest to replace it with modern buildings.
That would be an architectural crime! I've been there and it's not an outright bad area. In fact the medieval quarter is interesting exactly because it's inhabited with real people instead of being an open air museum. Some cities have made a mistake of this sort...
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Old December 31st, 2012, 11:18 PM   #4855
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That would be an architectural crime! I've been there and it's not an outright bad area. In fact the medieval quarter is interesting exactly because it's inhabited with real people instead of being an open air museum. Some cities have made a mistake of this sort...
But those buildings are a disaster waiting to happen. The alleys are too narrow to allow firefighter trucks, the buildings are not fit with access for disabled people, there is virtually no direct sunlight reaching the lowest 2 floors etc.

So it is a situation far worse than almost any other quaint/old quarter in a walled or former walled perimeter.

They could demolish part of the thing, build higher building to accommodate the displaced population, and then leave the rest empty as an open-air museum.

Believe me, the place is bad. It can't be even gentrified because you can't make such think look good. So the demographics of the are also not the better (it is not a dangerous place, but it has a huge concentration of people with no education and no jobs, for instance)

One alternative would be to demolish every other block and making them into parks/grass area. That way, you save half of all buildings (actually a little more, give them airy views, and demolish the other half, making the area like a chess board.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 02:53 PM   #4856
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Apparently you need to be escorted by police officers in Genova.

Street View in old town Genova
They probably use bicycles to map those alleys. Police escort them for safety reason and to keep away passer-by.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist

But those buildings are a disaster waiting to happen. The alleys are too narrow to allow firefighter trucks, the buildings are not fit with access for disabled people, there is virtually no direct sunlight reaching the lowest 2 floors etc.

So it is a situation far worse than almost any other quaint/old quarter in a walled or former walled perimeter.

They could demolish part of the thing, build higher building to accommodate the displaced population, and then leave the rest empty as an open-air museum.

Believe me, the place is bad. It can't be even gentrified because you can't make such think look good. So the demographics of the are also not the better (it is not a dangerous place, but it has a huge concentration of people with no education and no jobs, for instance)

One alternative would be to demolish every other block and making them into parks/grass area. That way, you save half of all buildings (actually a little more, give them airy views, and demolish the other half, making the area like a chess board.
They don't need to demolish them, I agree it would be an architectural crime. They should only use them for their best possible use. Lower floors are more suitable for shops, pubs, offices, sites of associations,... Upper floors, that are better liveable because they receive more sunlight can be use for housing purpouses. Not only for low-income permanent residences but also to accomodate short-term visitors (b&b and apartments to rent) or for student dormitories (most students don't own a car where they live, don't need a big house, aren't willing to pay high rents and prefer staying in the dowtown where there are more opportunities for social life and everything they need is located within walking distance).

Also Venice may be unhealty and bad to live: high humidity, old buildings, inaccessibility by fire trucks and emergency helicopters, inaccessibility to disables, old-fashionated sewage system,... Are you advocating that 60k Venetians should be relocated to the mainland (very healty, especially near Marghera oil plant or in highrises facing directly the A57 ) and the city be preserved as a sterile open-air museum? Or maybe you want to close the Venetian lagoon with 3 dams and dry it entirely, building roads instead of canals and some brutalist-style commieblocks in front of San Marco square.
Or build another Latina or Sabaudia in some polder in the former lagoon.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 03:09 PM   #4857
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Also Venice may be unhealty and bad to live: high humidity, old buildings, inaccessibility by fire trucks and emergency helicopters, inaccessibility to disables, old-fashionated sewage system,... Are you advocating that 60k Venetians should be relocated to the mainland (very healty, especially near Marghera oil plant or in highrises facing directly the A57
They could be relocated to Chioggia or Venezia Lido. But in any case the population of the islands themselves is dwindling, it was 200K late 19th Century, today around 60K, I think the median age is higher than in the rest of Italy. Unless you are uber-rich to finance a very expensive building renovation, life on those houses is miserable, expensive and uncomfortable. Which is why I think in 30 years its population will be reduced to maybe 10K-15K.

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Or maybe you want to close the Venetian lagoon with 3 dams and dry it entirely, building roads instead of canals

Or build another Latina or Sabaudia in some polder in the former lagoon.
I think they should reclaim the area between the airport, Burano and Murano, making it a polder. Mind you, Burano and Murano have had part of their canals filled. They could then build a brand-new city full of modern buildings, some futuristic transportation system like Ultra PRT, and extend A27 across it to some major hub center.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 03:24 PM   #4858
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If people accept to live in "miserable" areas like Genoa or Venice historical centres, why is a problem of you? They aren't forced to stay there, they can move whenever they want. And a lot of people already did. Why should they be forced by law to move? Isn't it against individual freedom?
And have you also some destructive plans for Siena and Matera?
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 03:29 PM   #4859
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Wow, it looks very dangerous. It's not even a small junction but a junction with another SS road. Are there many like this on the SS131?

EDIT: there is at least a dozen of them but all are planned to be replaced by interchanges.
I 've see things like this in Turkey. But with traffic lights.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 04:18 PM   #4860
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If people accept to live in "miserable" areas like Genoa or Venice historical centres, why is a problem of you? They aren't forced to stay there, they can move whenever they want. And a lot of people already did. Why should they be forced by law to move? Isn't it against individual freedom?
And have you also some destructive plans for Siena and Matera?
Don't take any notice. Once in a while he comes up with this crap. I'm sure he's got a good heart, but sometimes he's running low on tablets. We've been going through this a few times, and when he thinks it's acceptable to move entire populations due to infrastructure and ugly modern buildings, then let him think that. His cup of tea, not mine. Probably the reason he has moved to Holland, where they have experienced the worst possible modern architecture ever since they've bombed the hell out of Rotterdam.
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