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Old January 1st, 2013, 04:38 PM   #4861
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
where they have experienced the worst possible modern architecture ever since they've bombed the hell out of Rotterdam.
I'd guess you've never been east of Germany...

As for Genoa old town it will be just fine. Won't be an upscale residential area, but so what? In fact I've heard it's already in a better condition than it used to be (my so far only visit was in spring 2012).
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Old January 1st, 2013, 04:54 PM   #4862
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I'd guess you've never been east of Germany...

As for Genoa old town it will be just fine. Won't be an upscale residential area, but so what? In fact I've heard it's already in a better condition than it used to be (my so far only visit was in spring 2012).
I've have been all over eastern Europe. Slightly difference situation though. Infrastructure there has been set up with little or no architectural freedoms and lack of fantasy.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 05:05 PM   #4863
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But those buildings are a disaster waiting to happen. The alleys are too narrow to allow firefighter trucks, the buildings are not fit with access for disabled people, there is virtually no direct sunlight reaching the lowest 2 floors etc.

So it is a situation far worse than almost any other quaint/old quarter in a walled or former walled perimeter.

They could demolish part of the thing, build higher building to accommodate the displaced population, and then leave the rest empty as an open-air museum.

Believe me, the place is bad. It can't be even gentrified because you can't make such think look good. So the demographics of the are also not the better (it is not a dangerous place, but it has a huge concentration of people with no education and no jobs, for instance)

One alternative would be to demolish every other block and making them into parks/grass area. That way, you save half of all buildings (actually a little more, give them airy views, and demolish the other half, making the area like a chess board.
Almost ALL Italian cities have historical areas like that (ancient/old buildings, narrow streets, no modern standards). But you couldn't simply demolish half Italy.


Also living in seismic areas is dangerous (the whole Japan or California are "disasters waiting to happen"), or living near a volcano... But you can't demolish and relocate everything/everybody!
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Old January 1st, 2013, 05:24 PM   #4864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauz®
Almost ALL Italian cities have historical areas like that (ancient/old buildings, narrow streets, no modern standards). But you couldn't simply demolish half Italy.

Also living in seismic areas is dangerous (the whole Japan or California are "disasters waiting to happen"), or living near a volcano... But you can't demolish and relocate everything/everybody!
Japan and California are quite safe under the seismical point of view because they have mostly modern buildings and construction standards are high (most damage that happened in Seikan 2 years ago were causated by the tsunami). Large parts of Italy are also very seismical, but we have a lot of old buildings plus many recent ones built with poor standards thanks to the corruption and crime syndacates...
And, while recostruction in Japan started few days after the disaster, L'Aquila is still mostly like it was just after 6.4.2009 (and probably, apart the most important historical monuments, won't be reconstructed anytime like before, since his residents have being used to live in the anonymous Silvio's new towns build in what before was open countryside).
Gemona, Venzone and other villages destroyed by the 1976 Friuli earthquake were reconstructed exactly like before in few years, thanks to the efforts of the hardworking local population, rather than to the propaganda of a populist leader.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 05:39 PM   #4865
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But those buildings are a disaster waiting to happen. The alleys are too narrow to allow firefighter trucks, the buildings are not fit with access for disabled people, there is virtually no direct sunlight reaching the lowest 2 floors etc.

So it is a situation far worse than almost any other quaint/old quarter in a walled or former walled perimeter.

They could demolish part of the thing, build higher building to accommodate the displaced population, and then leave the rest empty as an open-air museum.

Believe me, the place is bad. It can't be even gentrified because you can't make such think look good. So the demographics of the are also not the better (it is not a dangerous place, but it has a huge concentration of people with no education and no jobs, for instance)

One alternative would be to demolish every other block and making them into parks/grass area. That way, you save half of all buildings (actually a little more, give them airy views, and demolish the other half, making the area like a chess board.
Earthquake, Tsunami, whatever you want... When it happens, there are never ZERO victims. So, those areas aren't safe.

California can build also "bubblegum-buildings", but when the "Big One" will came there will be still a lot of damage and victims. Surely not as many as if the same thing would happen in poor areas like Haiti, but still many.

So, should thay demolish everything and relocate all people to safer areas? No, that's impossible.


The point is that your proposal is truly utopic. Impossible to realize it really!
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Old January 1st, 2013, 05:39 PM   #4866
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Japan and California are prone to occasional very strong earthquakes. I doubt the area destroyed by tsunami will ever be like before let alone soon... But such is the life, things tend not to stay the same forever.

Will see how good the building standards in California are only after "The big one". Skyscrapers will probably be ok, but I have my doubts about poorer areas of LA.
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Old January 2nd, 2013, 11:39 AM   #4867
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I don't think safety in the event of a big earthquake is enough to demolish Italian city centers. There's so much history there, I mean, these buildings still have a lot to say to historians and investigators. Plus they mean a lot to us humans as the heritage they are. Demolishing stuff because some think it's "outdated" has been one of the greatest mistakes of humanity.
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Old January 2nd, 2013, 07:57 PM   #4868
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New motorway tariffs have been implemented starting on 1st January. The highest increment is on Aosta-Mont Blanc stretch of A5 (+14.44%); other large rises are on Passante di Mestre and A4 stretches belonging to CAV (+13%). No rises only on A3 Napoli-Salerno, and on stretches belonging to SATAP (A21 Torino-Piacenza and A4 Torino-Milano), SAT (A12 Livorno-Rosignano Marittimo), CAS (A18 and A20), A31 and A4 Brescia-Padova.

Full list here (sospeso means suspended):
CONCESSIONARIA / ADEGUAMENTO TARIFFARIO NEL 2013

Asti Cuneo S.p.a. +7,20
ATIVA - Autostrada Torino-Ivrea-Valle D'Aosta +0,82
Autocamionale della Cisa S.p.A. +7,39
Autostrada Brescia-Verona-Vicenza-Padova sospeso
Autostrada dei Fiori S.p.A +3,70
Autostrada del Brennero S.p.A. +1,21
Autostrade Centropadane S.p.A. +5,66
Autostrade per l'Italia S.p.a. +3,47
Autovie Venete S.p.A. +12,63
CAV S.p.A. - Passante Mestre +13,55
CAV S.p.A.- Tratte autostradali A4 +13,19
Consorzio Autostrade Siciliane 0,00
Milano Serravalle Milano Tangenziali S.p.A. +1,16
RAV - Raccordo Autostradale Val D'Aosta S.p.A. +14,44
SALT - Autostrada Ligure - Toscana S.p.A. +3,93
SAM - Autostrade Meridionali S.p.A. 0,00
SAT - Autostrada Tirrenica S.p.A sospeso
SATAP S.p.a. A4 sospeso
SATAP S.p.a. A21 sospeso
SAV - Autostrade Valdostane S.p.A. +11,55
SITAF - barriera di Avigliana +6,65
SITAF - barriera di Bruere +4,90
SITAF - barriera di Salbertrand +6,15
Strada Dei Parchi S.p.a. +7,56
Tangenziale Napoli S.p.A. +3,59
Torino-Savona S.p.A. +2,24
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Old January 2nd, 2013, 11:12 PM   #4869
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autovie venete pretty high as well
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Old January 2nd, 2013, 11:23 PM   #4870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hofburg
autovie venete pretty high as well
Autovie Venete completed some costly projects in the last past years (A28 extension towards the A27 and new exits of Latisana and Meolo) and others are undergoing (3rd lane Mestre-Villesse, reconstruction Villesse-Gorizia and planned Alvisopoli exit).

Normally, flat motorways have cheaper tolls.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 2nd, 2013, 11:41 PM   #4871
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Autovie Venete completed some costly projects in the last past years (A28 extension towards the A27 and new exits of Latisana and Meolo) and others are undergoing (3rd lane Mestre-Villesse, reconstruction Villesse-Gorizia and planned Alvisopoli exit).
Can't be the whole story. SAT and SAM are also working on expensive projects but no raises had been granted to them.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 12:34 AM   #4872
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza

Can't be the whole story. SAT and SAM are also working on expensive projects but no raises had been granted to them.
SAV, unlikely SAT and SAM isn't part of the Atlantia S.p.A. group (its shares are mostly owned by FVG region). I'm not sure if it could be a reason though, maybe they're just more greedy.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 09:56 AM   #4873
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
SAV, unlikely SAT and SAM isn't part of the Atlantia S.p.A. group (its shares are mostly owned by FVG region). I'm not sure if it could be a reason though, maybe they're just more greedy.
This is not the reason either. Those figures are not the companies' requests, but what's been granted them by the government.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 12:41 PM   #4874
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We must not forget that Autovie venete have increased tarrifs in 2012 for 12,93%. So in 2 years they increased tarrifs for more than 25% !!!
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 12:43 PM   #4875
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They apparently do not want anyone to use their motorways.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 01:03 PM   #4876
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The toll concessionaires don't have autonomy to set fares as they wish (at least in terms of raising them).

In Italy, and pretty much everywhere else where there is a toll road operated by a private party, the rules specifying the fares and the criteria for their increase are set on the contract they sign.

It is not like they can raise fares freely.

In Italy, these contracts are rather complex, but they take into account traffic, completion of roadworks (including additional/retained increases for early/late completion), inflation, additional mitigation measures not originally planned (such as noise walls, reformulation of interchanges/exits) etc.

Toll concessions with many tunnels, for instance, were subject of additional fare increases because it was decided to strengthen the safety standards of tunnels after the fires on the Mont Blanc, Frejus and Gotthard tunnels. Some concessions experienced a larger than predicted traffic increase with new lanes, and thus fares weren't raised as originally planned.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 01:10 PM   #4877
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Italian toll roads have the advantage that alternative routes are pretty slow. For instance this is a major issue in Spain where trucks have almost no advantage by driving on toll roads compared to the usually well-designed carreteras nacionales with a 100 km/h speed limit.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 01:40 PM   #4878
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Spain was poorer than Italy and, in many cases, invested on widening old routes to 1+1 improved standards. Moreover, Spain has, usually, farther spaced settlements, meaning less time lost crossing cities...

Using Google Maps, for instance, we obtain the following driving times (I know it is not the most precise):

- Bologna - Bari: 5h57min on autostrade / 11h52min on non-autostrade routes
- Roma - Firenze: 2h47 / 5h34
- Bolzano - Modena: 2h21 / 4h18
- Torino - Venezia: 3h56 / 7h34
- Napoli - Reggio Calabra: 4h41 / 8h10
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 01:45 PM   #4879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle
Italian toll roads have the advantage that alternative routes are pretty slow. For instance this is a major issue in Spain where trucks have almost no advantage by driving on toll roads compared to the usually well-designed carreteras nacionales with a 100 km/h speed limit.
Only exceptions are A11 Florence - Viareggio (FI-PI-LI expressway next) and A14 Foggia - Bari - Taranto (exp. SS16 FG-BA and SS100 BA-TA).
Some people uses the SS3bis/SS309 and the SS1 as N-S routes but they're slower and often overcrowded. Other drive via local roads from Venice to Trento to avoid the detour via Verona. Other leave the A4 at Mestre and re-enter A14 in Cesena avoiding the expensive detour through Bologna.
In summer light traffic can avoid the insanely expensive tolls for Mont Blanc, St Bernard and Frejus tunnels by driving over passes (the Monginevro is also open almost year-round).

About A4 VE-TS: there is the quite straight SS14 next but it crosses many towns and has roundabout and traffic lights, so driving from TS to VE on that road may take 3 hours (instead of 1,5 via the A4). Almost everyone here uses the SS14 for short sections (ex. San Dona' to Portogruaro) but rarely on the entire lenght. If you have to go from Udine to Portogruaro, the straight provincial road is probably as fast as the A4-A23 because is 20km shorter.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

Last edited by italystf; January 3rd, 2013 at 01:58 PM.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 01:51 PM   #4880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist
- Napoli - Reggio Calabra: 4h41 / 8h10
Apart the fact that avoid the motorway here is pointless (A3 is almost entirely toll-free), probably the 8h10 figure is more realistic if referred to the "motorway".
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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