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Old June 14th, 2013, 07:21 AM   #5341
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Those distances...
Why?
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Old June 14th, 2013, 10:59 AM   #5342
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Because those distances are confusing. I drove there last week and its realy strange... Instead of writting VENEZIA 120,5 they could write VENEZIA 121. And nobody would noticed those 500 meters
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Old June 15th, 2013, 01:55 PM   #5343
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Hi, my question is about Sardinia: I read in wikipedia that the island has not motorways, but it has expressways, what is the difference between an expressway and a motorway in Italy?
Expressways are not motorways without toll? In Spain motorways (autopistas has toll) and expressways (autovías) has not toll, but they're the same in quality (in modern days)

Yes, I know my question finally is not only about Sardinia, but generally. Thank you.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 02:15 PM   #5344
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Originally Posted by javimix19 View Post
Hi, my question is about Sardinia: I read in wikipedia that the island has not motorways, but it has expressways, what is the difference between an expressway and a motorway in Italy?
Expressways are not motorways without toll? In Spain motorways (autopistas has toll) and expressways (autovías) has not toll, but they're the same in quality (in modern days)

Yes, I know my question finally is not only about Sardinia, but generally. Thank you.
Expressways' lanes are generally narrower and can lack shoulder altogether. Curves can be tighter and slopes can be steeper. They are not tolled (with the exception of Pedemontana Veneta, which is U/C now). Limits are no higher than 110 km/h and can be lower (90 km/h).
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Old June 15th, 2013, 02:16 PM   #5345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javimix19 View Post
Hi, my question is about Sardinia: I read in wikipedia that the island has not motorways, but it has expressways, what is the difference between an expressway and a motorway in Italy?
Expressways are not motorways without toll? In Spain motorways (autopistas has toll) and expressways (autovías) has not toll, but they're the same in quality (in modern days)

Yes, I know my question finally is not only about Sardinia, but generally. Thank you.
Expressways have usually lower standards than motorways. The general speed limit is 110 instead of 130. Expressways may have sharper curves, steeper slopes and being narrower than motorways. Expressways aren't tolled while most, but not all, motorways are. Both are completely grade-separated, divided and for motorized traffic only (also scooters and tractors are banned on both). Motorways have green signs, expressways blue like other roads. In some cases, older motorways are technically quite similar to expressways, while some modern expressways are de-facto motorways. Sardinia is a particular case as some expressways have also at-grade junctions, that shouldn't be allowed.

EDIT: Spinoza already replied.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 04:52 PM   #5346
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Italian Highway Code (Codice della strada) divides dual carriageways into three different classifications:

*autostrada (motorway)

*strada extraurbana principale (meaning main highway) or type-B road: a road with separate carriageways, at least two lanes for each direction, paved shoulder on the right and no cross-traffic. This type of road is quite similar to an autostrada or type-A road (Italian official name for motorways or freeways), but its building standards are lower. Access limitations and drive behaviour on type-B roads are exactly the same of the motorways (no pedestrians, bicycles and other low vehicles), as well as the signage (except for the background color, that is blue instead of green). Speed limit on type-B roads is up to 110 kilometers per hour. Type-B roads are always toll-free.

*strada extraurbana secondaria (meaning less importance road) or type-C road. This category contains all the roads in non-urban context that are neither autostrada (type A) nor strada extraurbana principale (type B). This means that a dual carriageway that may not be classified as type-B road, since it does not meet such quality standards, belongs to this category. For type-C roads, there aren't neither special signage nor access restrictions, unless a specific sign is placed. Speed limit is 90 kilometers per hour, on both single and dual carriageways.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_carriageway#Italy
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Old June 17th, 2013, 12:57 AM   #5347
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Another unnumbered Italian road:

http://i40.tinyREMOVETHISpic.com/rc5yro.jpg
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Old June 17th, 2013, 12:16 PM   #5348
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Hello, today I have two questions, one short and the other perhaps long:

- First one: Why the A-12 stretch between Grosseto and Tarquinia is unfinished? I think that is a very important connection to Rome for France.

- This is more general question: why the majority of italian motorways have tolls? I've explain, Italy is a rich country (more than Spain for example and in Spain the majority of motorways are free). Considering that in Italy has not vignette why the government has decided to put tolls in the principal motorways?
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Old June 17th, 2013, 12:25 PM   #5349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javimix19 View Post
Hello, today I have two questions, one short and the other perhaps long:

- First one: Why the A-12 stretch between Grosseto and Tarquinia is unfinished? I think that is a very important connection to Rome for France.
The usual: lack of money, lack of political will, lots of environmental opposition.


Quote:
- This is more general question: why the majority of italian motorways have tolls? I've explain, Italy is a rich country (more than Spain for example and in Spain the majority of motorways are free). Considering that in Italy has not vignette why the government has decided to put tolls in the principal motorways?
Every country makes its own choices, I don't think that richness has something to do with it. France is richer than Italy and has tolls, Germany is richer than France and has no tolls, Switzerland is richer than Germany and has vignette tolls.
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Old June 17th, 2013, 12:51 PM   #5350
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Every Country makes its own choices, I don't think that richness has something to do with it. France is richer than Italy and has tolls, Germany is richer than France and has no tolls, Switzerland is richer than Germany and has vignette tolls.
You have all the reason about richness, but I think (and it's my opinion of course) that France and Italy have the worst system in Europe. Majority of motorways with tolls and no vignettes. The drivers in Italy and France pay a lot more in tolls than in another country of Europe. (In Portugal also I forgot).
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Old June 17th, 2013, 01:07 PM   #5351
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You have all the reason about richness, but I think (and it's my opinion of course) that France and Italy have the worst system in Europe. Majority of motorways with tolls and no vignettes. The drivers in Italy and France pay a lot more in tolls than in another country of Europe. (In Portugal also I forgot).
In my opinion the vignette system is applicable only in small countries, which France and Italy are not. A year-round vignette can cost almost 100€ in such small countries, so in large countries should be more expensive. I definitely won't pay 400 or 500 euro for a vignette in Italy. Nobody would.
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Old June 17th, 2013, 03:35 PM   #5352
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In mostly-mountanious countries like Italy, France, Spain, Switzerland and Austria the construction and maintenance of motorways in more expensive than in mostly-flat or hilly countries like Germany, Denmark, Belgium and Netherlands. This can be an explanation for tolling. Other countries that don't have tolled highways may finance them with higher taxes on fuel and vehicle ownership.
Italy, in particular, recently entered in a new era of motorways contruction, after 20 years of stagnation. This "justifies" the sharp increase of toll fares (far higher than the inflation) that happens every 1st January.
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Old June 17th, 2013, 04:35 PM   #5353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
In my opinion the vignette system is applicable only in small countries, which France and Italy are not. A year-round vignette can cost almost 100€ in such small countries, so in large countries should be more expensive. I definitely won't pay 400 or 500 euro for a vignette in Italy. Nobody would.
I think that is a flawed approach to vignettes. I don't see any reason why vignettes in large countries should be considerably more expensive than those in small countries. People don't drive 5 times more just because the country is 5 times larger. The vast majority of the trips is short to medium distance, whether in Italy, Canada or Switzerland.

The only thing you can argue is that with a similarly priced vignette, occasional long-distance trips would be relatively cheaper than those in smaller countries. Which is probably the reason why no large countries have implemented a vignette, but all in all 500+ kilometer trips happen just 3 or 4 times per year for most people.

The question is whether a vignette should be much more expensive to cover those few long-distance trips as well. I don't think it should. Maybe it should be slightly more expensive to cover the possibility of occassional long-distance trips, but not by a factor 5 or 10.
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Old June 17th, 2013, 04:57 PM   #5354
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I think that is a flawed approach to vignettes. I don't see any reason why vignettes in large countries should be considerably more expensive than those in small countries. People don't drive 5 times more just because the country is 5 times larger. The vast majority of the trips is short to medium distance, whether in Italy, Canada or Switzerland.
I disagree. Long distance drives are much more common within Italy than cross-borders. My parents live 400 km south from here, my fiancee's 200 km further south, so my sister and sisters-in-law. Very few people in Italy have relatives or acquaintances abroad and feel the need to drive there.

Milanese go to the seaside in Liguria, or even further south in Romagna or Marche. On the other hand, almost nobody go to France, for several reasons.

I do drive much longer distances than I would had I been living in small countries, and so do lots of Italians.

Lastly, while it is true that short-medium distance trip are more frequent, it's long distance drives that boost the amount of km driven per capita. I can drive 15 km per day going to work, but a return trip to, say Reggio Calabria, where I have acquaintences is 300 times longer.
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Old June 17th, 2013, 05:27 PM   #5355
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I agree that longer trips are somewhat more common in large countries than in smaller countries, but I don't think a vignette should be 5 times more expensive.

Vignettes are outdated and uneconomical anyway. They cannot support a toll road system financially, for example in Austria the vignette pays for only about a quarter of all expenses on the system, the rest is paid for by trucks. Vignettes are basically an alternate form of a road tax, chiefly introduced to make sure foreigners pay their share too. However, income is relatively small, especially if you subtract the cost of distribution and enforcement it's relatively insignificant. The Swiss vignette has a revenue of only € 230 million.
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Old June 17th, 2013, 05:36 PM   #5356
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Upgrading works new SS 640 Caltanissetta-Agrigento

Work on the second lot (in the province of Caltanissetta)

6 June 2013

(from Caltanissetta to Agrigento)


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Old June 17th, 2013, 08:48 PM   #5357
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I disagree. Long distance drives are much more common within Italy than cross-borders. My parents live 400 km south from here, my fiancee's 200 km further south, so my sister and sisters-in-law. Very few people in Italy have relatives or acquaintances abroad and feel the need to drive there.

Milanese go to the seaside in Liguria, or even further south in Romagna or Marche. On the other hand, almost nobody go to France, for several reasons.
That's a bit surprising considering that there are about 300,000 Italians in the tiny Switzerland alone and that is not counting those who have obtained Swiss citizenship. Plus of course not all of one's friends need be the same nationality as yourself.
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Old June 17th, 2013, 09:19 PM   #5358
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Well, even if Schengen erased borders between most of European countries and the developement of the motorway network made international travels easier, language and cultural borders still resist. For many people, the linguistic differences prevent them to move, find a job or make friends in a foreign country.
There is this discussion about this topic:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1588165
Cross border traffic is higher where the same language is spoken on both sides (Italy-Canton Ticino, Austria-Sudtirol, Austria-Germany, Austria-German Switzerland, Germany-German Switzerland, France-Wallonia, Netherlands-Flanders).
Probably this trend will decrease in the next decades when most people below the age of 50-60 will know English.
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Old June 18th, 2013, 10:32 AM   #5359
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That's a bit surprising considering that there are about 300,000 Italians in the tiny Switzerland alone and that is not counting those who have obtained Swiss citizenship.
True, but this is an exception (confirming the rule). And in many cases it's the Swiss-Italian who drives back to Italy to visit relatives, not the vice versa.

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Plus of course not all of one's friends need be the same nationality as yourself.
Maybe, but that's what happens.
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Old June 18th, 2013, 11:29 AM   #5360
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That's a bit surprising considering that there are about 300,000 Italians in the tiny Switzerland alone and that is not counting those who have obtained Swiss citizenship. Plus of course not all of one's friends need be the same nationality as yourself.
And on top of that Italians are almost au pair now with Germans and Dutch travellers. They are absolutly everywhere. In Holland alone there are thousands of Italian camper vans on the road...
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