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Old September 25th, 2013, 05:47 PM   #6141
g.spinoza
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By the way I just checked Wikipedia, it says "end 2014"... and I didn't edit in the meantime!

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autost...lla_percorso_2

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Old September 26th, 2013, 01:13 PM   #6142
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A truck transporting paper caught fire inside a tunnel in the Apennines' northbound stretch of A1. The Castagna tunnel was damaged by the fire, so it was shut down and a one-carriageway-only detour has been established. Queues reached 26 km at 11:20 am.

http://firenze.repubblica.it/cronaca.../?ref=HREC1-10
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Old September 26th, 2013, 01:36 PM   #6143
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
A truck transporting paper caught fire inside a tunnel in the Apennines' northbound stretch of A1. The Castagna tunnel was damaged by the fire, so it was shut down and a one-carriageway-only detour has been established. Queues reached 26 km at 11:20 am.

http://firenze.repubblica.it/cronaca.../?ref=HREC1-10
Not a new fact... It happened before: http://www.repubblica.it/2008/08/sez...-incendio.html

The worst part of the whole italian highway system: the A1 between Barberino del Mugello and Roncobilaccio.

Hopefully Variante di Valico will "fix" this problem.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 02:43 PM   #6144
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- Regarding this matter how are the old motorways in Italy?

I am young, but I hear here in Spain that in 50's and 60's Italy built a lot of motorways. In Spain people envy how Italy was developed in that years, creating a model to the other South Mediterranean contries. (not only in transportation, but in other facts).

- Do you think that old motorways are good now? I think that with the time they are being reconstructed.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 02:50 PM   #6145
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They are not good especially not tunnels. They are ok in nice weather and low traffic but accidents are common especially at such curvy narrow mountainous motorways. I never had good feeling driving between Bologna and Firenze even if it is otherwise picturesque and interesting motorway. But when you see appalling condition of some of the tunnels then you see that time has come time to completely reconstruct motorway.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 02:51 PM   #6146
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- Regarding this matter how are the old motorways in Italy?

I am young, but I hear here in Spain that in 50's and 60's Italy built a lot of motorways. In Spain people envy how Italy was developed in that years, creating a model to the other South Mediterranean contries. (not only in transportation, but in other facts).

- Do you think that old motorways are good now? I think that with the time they are being reconstructed.
The Italian motorway backbones were opened between 1958 and 1974, roughly. After 1975 and until 2001 no new motorways were built - a law forbade it - but construction still went on, on stretches approved before 1975.

Apart from A3 which is an outlier, being fixed as we speak, Italian motorways even the old ones are generally good and up-to-date, mainly because many of them have been enlarged during the years and updated to current standards.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 03:02 PM   #6147
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- Regarding this matter how are the old motorways in Italy?

I am young, but I hear here in Spain that in 50's and 60's Italy built a lot of motorways. In Spain people envy how Italy was developed in that years, creating a model to the other South Mediterranean contries. (not only in transportation, but in other facts).

- Do you think that old motorways are good now? I think that with the time they are being reconstructed.
I quote g.spinoza above my post. Generally speaking, motorway, old and new ones, are pretty good.
That stretch of A1 between Firenze and Bologna was a masterpiece of engineering: tunnels, viaducts, bridges in places where building something is really hard! You have to cross the entire Appennini mountains, in a really tiny and narrow valley.

Look at A24/A25: this motorway, built between 1963 and 2009, is awesome: 2 lanes, 130km/h limit for all the route (except some really small parts at 110), and is the highest motorway in Europe (it reaches 1100mt above sea level). Moreover, there is the one of the longest double-tunnel (10173 mt - Gran Sasso) in all EU. First tunnel opened in 1984, and it was really amazing for that time.


That part of the A1 is now being replaced with the "Variante di Valico", a new motorway that avoid all those bends and those bridges, going more in tunnels.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 03:03 PM   #6148
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Look at A24/A25: and is the highest motorway in Europe (it reaches 1100mt above sea level).
Both Italian A22 and A5, and their transalpine counterparts, reach and overcome the 1300 m mark, though.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 03:08 PM   #6149
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Both Italian A22 and A5, and their transalpine counterparts, reach and overcome the 1300 m mark, though.
Really? I knew that 1100 was the highest... Where do they reach that mark?
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Old September 26th, 2013, 03:10 PM   #6150
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Really? I knew that 1100 was the highest... Where do they reach that mark?
Just check the altitude of Brennerpass...

BTW, A-1 in Spain reaches 1580 m asl.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 03:18 PM   #6151
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Just check the altitude of Brennerpass...

BTW, A-1 in Spain reaches 1580 m asl.
Ok, so I was wrong. I was sure though about that... I think I read it in a flyer made by A24 society.


Is it possible that it was the highest at the time of the opening?
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Old September 26th, 2013, 03:20 PM   #6152
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Italian freeways were in somehow bad maintenance state compared to German or British ones in the 1980s and 1990s. Outdated rest areas, fainting lane markings, overgrown grass, patchy pavement, old guard-rails. Then, government put most of the network under private concession, and the maintenance standards increased immensely, and accident and death/injury rates plummeted (deaths per billion km were reduced 84% between 1995 and 2011).

They also rebuilt many rest areas, some of which used to be filthy and dodgy at nights.

During the private concession period, some critical works were done, like the 4th lane on A1 Modena-Bologna.

Pavement on Italian private-managed freeways is spotless and shiny. Signs are always working, with many electronic panels. There is also frequent landscape maintenance.

As for the tunnels, Italy has a very high number of freeway tunnels. Actually, it has the highest individual count of highway tunnels in the World, and more than 4% of "austostrade" network total length is underground. So they hundreds of highway underground structures, not all in the best shape, I agree.

There are, however, problems with highways that are not managed by private concessionaires. A3 modernization works have been going on for a decade. Parts of the network in Sicilia island look a bit abandoned, some sectors face lengthy lane restrictions as they slowly fix old viaducts. There was a scandal when parts of A18 near Avola, which had been built not long ago, had to be completely revamped as they did shoddy earthworks and the road became a roller coaster.

So I'd say CAS and ANAS don't do a good job managing their highways compared to government entities in other countries like Austria, Germany, Netherlands, Spain...
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Last edited by Suburbanist; September 26th, 2013 at 03:39 PM.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 03:30 PM   #6153
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Originally Posted by narkelion View Post
Ok, so I was wrong. I was sure though about that... I think I read it in a flyer made by A24 society.


Is it possible that it was the highest at the time of the opening?
A24 reaches 1100 at the northern portal of tunnel S. Rocco, between A25 and L'Aquila; that stretch was opened in 1969. A22 reached Brennerpass in 1971, so I guess it's possible.

EDIT: The Spanish motorway I mentioned earlier should *only* reach 1440 m, I was wrong.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 03:56 PM   #6154
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Originally Posted by narkelion View Post
Not a new fact... It happened before: http://www.repubblica.it/2008/08/sez...-incendio.html

The worst part of the whole italian highway system: the A1 between Barberino del Mugello and Roncobilaccio.

Hopefully Variante di Valico will "fix" this problem.
In 2007 I waited more than a hour on this stretch because of a truck fire.
Roncobilaccio and Barberino del Mugello are among the most frequently mentioned places on the Italian traffic news radio ("Ondaverde", literally "green wave").

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Italian freeways were in somehow bad maintenance state compared to German or British ones in the 1980s and 1990s. Outdated rest areas, fainting lane markings, overgrown grass, patchy pavement, old guard-rails. Then, government put most of the network under private concession, and the maintenance standards increased immensely, and accident and death/injury rates plummeted (deaths per billion km were reduced 84% between 1995 and 2011).

They also rebuilt many rest areas, some of which used to be filthy and dodgy at nights.

During the private concession period, some critical works were done, like the 4th lane on A1 Modena-Bologna.

Pavement on Italian private-managed freeways is spotless and shiny. Signs are always working, with many electronic panels. There is also frequent landscape maintenance.

As for the tunnels, Italy has a very high number of freeway tunnels. Actually, it has the highest individual count of highway tunnels in the World, and more than 4% of "austostrade" network total length is underground. So they hundreds of highway underground structures, not all in the best shape, I agree.

There are, however, problems with highways that are not managed by private concessionaires. A3 modernization works have been going on for a decade. Parts of the network in Sicilia island look a bit abandoned, some sectors face lengthy lane restrictions as they slowly fix old viaducts. There was a scandal when parts of A18 near Avola, which had been built not long ago, had to be completely revamped as they did shoddy earthworks and the road became a roller coaster.

So I'd say CAS and ANAS don't do a good job managing their highways compared to government entities in other countries like Austria, Germany, Netherlands, Spain...
It's true, you hardly any find bad tolled highways, apart A18 and A20 (CAS managed).
However, in the past years, also ANAS did something good: for example the Catania-Syracuse motorway (very technologically advanced and completed in just 4 years) and the 3rd lane along the entire GRA.
A3 recostruction works are lasting a shamefully long time, but parts already opened are of a very good quality, especially considering that it's a toll-free motorway. No other Italian motorway has hard shoulders on all tunnels, not even those opened in the 1990s-2000s (A27, A5, A32).
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

Last edited by italystf; September 26th, 2013 at 04:04 PM.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 04:33 PM   #6155
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I think A3 should be tolled after works are completed in full. It is not justifiable to let that highway toll-free whereas anywhere else all major highways are tolled.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 04:50 PM   #6156
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I read that A3 and other motorways in the South of Italy are toll free to help development of this region.

- I don't know if the South now in 2013 is poor or not, but comparing to the North... perhaps yes. I think that this motorways should be toll free. But it is my opinion, I don't know social and transport reality in the South, so... I ask.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 04:57 PM   #6157
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Yes, South is still undeveloped compared to the North, but these "gifts" are not the way to go... some, may I say many, people in the North are sick of this, especially since it wasn't effective in reducing the gap with the North. Without erasing organized crime there's no hope for the South, tolls or no tolls.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 05:05 PM   #6158
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I read that A3 and other motorways in the South of Italy are toll free to help development of this region.
I think rebuilding the highway (which was actually a expressway before) at very high costs to the highest standards in Italy is enough of a help to economic development. Charging tolls to keep the road in good condition is fair.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 05:06 PM   #6159
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Where is the "border line" between North and South? I also hear a lot about this, also in Romania. I remember one time, a Romanian told the Italian investor that Romanian work quality is shamefully not so good, but then the Italian said, maybe not compared to the North, but compared to the South it's great and they like working in/with Romania.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 05:23 PM   #6160
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Where is the "border line" between North and South? I also hear a lot about this, also in Romania. I remember one time, a Romanian told the Italian investor that Romanian work quality is shamefully not so good, but then the Italian said, maybe not compared to the North, but compared to the South it's great and they like working in/with Romania.
It depends on the context. Nowadays the border line is generally considered the south border of Latium and Marche. Sardinia may or may not be included. Historically it was a bit different, because the border was considered the one with Two Sicilies Kingdom, so also part of Latium (parts of provinces Rieti, Frosinone and Latina) were considered south. In this context, Sardinia is not included.

This is also a big linguistic divide, where northern-central dialects (gallo-italic) and southern dialects meet.

For instance, dialects of Marche region (my native one) are more similar to those in the immediate north (Romagna, for instance) than to those in the immediate south (Abruzzo). I really had troubles understanding my fiancée's father when he spoke dialect (and he did not speak Italian).

Last edited by g.spinoza; September 26th, 2013 at 06:15 PM. Reason: correct grammar
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