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Old October 1st, 2013, 01:02 PM   #6201
Autobahn-mann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F81 View Post
I won't argue the open tolling system (which I personally dislike, but still...) but I feel there will be way too many tolling stations, every 40 km on average, which means that keeping an average speed of 120 km/h you have to stop or slow down to 30 km/h (in case you have Telepass transceiver on board) every 20 min of driving.
I hate the open tolling system, for the same motivatin!
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Old October 1st, 2013, 04:13 PM   #6202
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Lot A of Autostrada Pedemontana Lombarda (A36) is 75% completed. The stretch is 15 km long and will connect A8 in Cassano Magnago to A9 in Lomazzo; it will open in 2014, while the rest of A36 will have to wait till 2017 or 2019.

Toll system is free-flow, very similar to the one adopted in Milan for Area C ecopass.

http://online.stradeeautostrade.it/m...00213100111001
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Old October 1st, 2013, 04:17 PM   #6203
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Open road tolling is definitely the way to the future, but how are they going to toll foreign vehicles?
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Old October 1st, 2013, 04:40 PM   #6204
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No idea. But I guess the issue is not technical, only administrative...
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Old October 1st, 2013, 05:51 PM   #6205
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If successful then I hope it will be implemented on other autostrade.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 09:09 PM   #6206
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I was thinking... they should abolish Area C and prevent any other city from implementing similar measures in Italy with a national law.

They could, then, create a system based on EURO categories and allow only the use of EURO standards to allow or prohibit vehicles on basis of their pollution.

I also think a national law restricting the scope of ZTLs is needed... I have nothing against the pedestrianization of streets of something like that, but if a car can run, so should any car, regardless of whether it has applied for a license to enter the ZTL or not.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 09:34 PM   #6207
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Every time I read CIPE approved something, I remember how motivated for symbolic politics there were when they brought progress on the Messina strait bridge to a halt









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Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Prima parte
Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Seconda parte
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 08:04 PM   #6208
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I agree. Problem here is that by converting a non-tolled road into a tolled one, local population will be left with no choice. In this way, many local commutes will remain free and only long trips will be tolled.
So it's all about the money. I don't think that the trip from Cecina to Grosseto will be faster and more convenient via A12 (in the future) than it is via SS1 now (well maybe unless you have Telepass...).

SS1 needs resurfacing, but I guess there is no money for this, so they are going to turn it into private autostrada...
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 08:06 PM   #6209
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Everything is about the money.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 10:06 PM   #6210
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Well, if it's all private money then yes. But if it was to be built by public (government) money, I guess they would choose to build a new autostrada elsewhere rather than modernize an existing dual carriageway road.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 10:16 PM   #6211
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Well, if it's all private money then yes. But if it was to be built by public (government) money, I guess they would choose to build a new autostrada elsewhere rather than modernize an existing dual carriageway road.
Why?
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 10:51 PM   #6212
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Well, if it's all private money then yes. But if it was to be built by public (government) money, I guess they would choose to build a new autostrada elsewhere rather than modernize an existing dual carriageway road.
Tolls can be used to pay for maintenance (assuming capital expenses had been paid already) only. The reason tolls are the way they are is that in the late 1990s the Italian government decided to cash-in, putting roads in concessions and getting upfront money for it, plus obligations for concessionaires to build many works (like widening, retrofit of exits and rest areas, noise barriers, retrofit of bridges etc).

If the government decides, for instance, to put A3 to concession without charging anything upfront, with just maintenance work as the major obligation (short of a few fixes and noise barriers), tolls on A3, for instance, could be low. Something like € 11-14 for the whole SA -RC sector.

Now I wish they put SS3-bis under concession and upgraded it to decent standards, even with high-ish tolls. That would also end its use as a diversion for trucks that use it to avoid tolls on A1.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 11:36 PM   #6213
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
If the government decides, for instance, to put A3 to concession without charging anything upfront, with just maintenance work as the major obligation (short of a few fixes and noise barriers), tolls on A3, for instance, could be low. Something like € 11-14 for the whole SA -RC sector.
I'm not sure if I get it right. What would be the profit for the concession company if they only charge tolls for maintenence?

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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Why?
I think there is always a more urgent project waiting for completion than upgrading a superstrada.
For example in Poland there is a ~200km stretch of autostrada that is planned to be tolled, but first a hard shoulder needs to be added. This stretch is not planned to put to concession, so money needed to modernize the highway is the same money that can be used to build new roads... and the government decides to build these new roads rather than upgrade the old one to charge tolls.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 07:30 PM   #6214
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Works for TEEM (Tangenziale Est Esterna Milano) unearthed remains of an ancient Roman road, near Casalmaiocco. Experts of "Soprintendenza ai beni artistici e storici", responsible for taking care of such findings, are assessing and evalutating the site, which can delay and cause problems to TEEM works.

http://www.lestradedellinformazione....colo13599.html
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Old October 4th, 2013, 02:48 AM   #6215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
I'm not sure if I get it right. What would be the profit for the concession company if they only charge tolls for maintenence?


I think there is always a more urgent project waiting for completion than upgrading a superstrada.
For example in Poland there is a ~200km stretch of autostrada that is planned to be tolled, but first a hard shoulder needs to be added. This stretch is not planned to put to concession, so money needed to modernize the highway is the same money that can be used to build new roads... and the government decides to build these new roads rather than upgrade the old one to charge tolls.
This has maybe some logic for a country like Poland - still with a rudimental network of expressways and motorways and with a much simpler geography and I guess less problem with Nimby.

Italy has had an extensive network for 40 years now. All the places where it was sensible and easy to build an autostrada (with few exception) have been exploited.

Nevertheless the block on autostrade construction in 70-90' meant that some main axes of communication are still waiting for a proper autostrada and are usually served by a normal road or a lower standard superstrada.

Some things you probably did not consider

1) Building a new autostrada in Italy in a totally new corridor is a VERY expensive undertake, as NIMBY have to be addressed and a corridor found among our largely pretty overpopulated peninsula, with plenty of difficult landscape to pass through. All easy and simple corridors (and plenty of very difficult ones) have already been used

2) Superstrade have a much lower standard than a Autostrada. Transforming an old superstrada to a modern autostrada requires much more than adding a hard shoulder. Curves needs to be rectified, exits changed and much more. However it is still less expensive and more politically viable (the latter more important) than trying to force a completely new autostrada in a new corridor

3) In general in Poland there are more urgent things than upgrading a motorway. However in Italy with few exceptions around the main cities and some stretches in north italy that can be built anyway in PF (without state money) the main long-range holes in the network (A12 and the Orte-Ravenna superstrada) are covered by outdated superstrade that needs to be upgraded
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Old October 4th, 2013, 11:00 AM   #6216
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Yesterday there has been an "open day" on the construction site of Laives/Leifers bypass on SS 12 "dell'Abetone e del Brennero", in province Bolzano/Bozen. This is part of a larger project of bypasses in that province, along with San Giacomo/St. Jacob (opened in 2005), Pineta/Steinmannwald (2009), Ora/Auer and Merano/Meran (2013).

The Laives/Leifers bypass is made up of a 96 m long artificial tunnel followed by a 2882 m natural tunnel, with 4 emergency bays, 5 pedestrian escape hatches and a 832 m escape tunnel. The pavement was made in concrete: less risks of fire, light color requiring 25% less lighting, twice as durable as asphalt.
Dig was started in 2009 and the tunnel will open in December 2013.

http://www.provincia.bz.it/usp/285.a...icle_id=438237
with pics and videos.

Here the location on OSM:
http://osm.org/go/0IQAuwcd-
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Old October 4th, 2013, 12:31 PM   #6217
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I see that SS12 is a parallel expressway to A22. It is used by vehicles to avoid toll in this motorway?
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Old October 4th, 2013, 12:38 PM   #6218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javimix19 View Post
I see that SS12 is a parallel expressway to A22. It is used by vehicles to avoid toll in this motorway?
It's not an expressway, just a normal 1+1 road (except around Trento).
I drove it in its entirety only once, but I doubt it is used to avoid A22. It takes twice the time.
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Old October 5th, 2013, 12:39 AM   #6219
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I see that SS12 is a parallel expressway to A22. It is used by vehicles to avoid toll in this motorway?
Part of SS12, SS47 and SP235 around Trento are expressway-like but they're just "tangenziali" (to avoid local traffic crossing the city), all long-distance traffic goes through the A22.
However they aren't signed as expressways so they're "strade extraurbane secondarie" with 90 speed limit.

Strangely, this long tunnel on the SP235 from Trento nord towards the Val di Non is double tube even if the road is 1+1 there.
https://maps.google.it/maps?ll=46.19...314.59,,0,5.57
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 5th, 2013, 12:47 AM   #6220
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One of the things that quite pissed me off is the opening of these two long tunnels on the SS241 near Bolzano. Maybe the road is safer now but many spectacular views are gone forever (the road used to run at the bottom of a deep canyon).
https://maps.google.it/maps?q=Nova+L...lto+Adige&z=15
Fortunately there are still nice stretches left.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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