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Old November 21st, 2013, 04:50 PM   #6401
narkelion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Well, unfortunately there is an hysterical reaction against elevated expressways in Italy, even if it would be possible as it indeed is to build them with much nicer aesthetics than in the 1960s.
Elevated expressways are always a place where decay sprawls.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 04:55 PM   #6402
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Well, unfortunately there is an hysterical reaction against elevated expressways in Italy, even if it would be possible as it indeed is to build them with much nicer aesthetics than in the 1960s.
To my opinion, elevated expressways should be a thing of the past.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 05:38 PM   #6403
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Elevated expressways are great when you drive on them, but not so much for the city. I like driving on the Trieste bypass, but I don't live in Trieste.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 05:47 PM   #6404
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To my opinion, elevated expressways should be a thing of the past.
What is your alternative for faster car traffic in Torino, then?
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Old November 21st, 2013, 05:49 PM   #6405
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Tunnels. But politicians are not willing to put all motoring taxes to work on that. Really, if all taxes collected on motorists would be put into roads, we could build just about anything we want.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 06:37 PM   #6406
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Elevated expressways are great when you drive on them, but not so much for the city. I like driving on the Trieste bypass, but I don't live in Trieste.
Trieste elevated expressway stretch across the industrial area, the port, some suburbs and woods but it doesn't touch the historical core of the city and the central waterfront.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 08:26 PM   #6407
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Yes, A4 runs through a very populated and industrialized area, so they want to have an alternate route to decongest it. There are already toll-free expressways around Brescia, Verona, Vicenza and Padova but not between them. In practice this project will link all the existing tangenziali together creating an unique toll-free motor\expressway between Brescia and Padova. I guess that, if they'll ever built that, most of the traffic will choose the free alternative, that, being 2+2 instead of 3+3, will be extremely congested. The A4 from Brescia to Quarto d'Altino is already 3x2 all the way and it's not dramatically congested, at least compared to the still 4-lane A4 from Quarto d'Altino to Trieste-Lisert. Plus, the "Pedemontana Veneta" (already U/C) and, much later, the "Pedemontana Friulana" (link Pordenone - Gemona, unfortunately still in planning stage) will alleviate traffic problems on the A4.
Pedemontana friulana? You mean a motorway between Gemona and Pordenone?
I've red in wikipedia some time ago that there's a project to connect A27 to A23 near Tolmezzo
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Old November 21st, 2013, 09:06 PM   #6408
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Pedemontana friulana? You mean a motorway between Gemona and Pordenone?
I've red in wikipedia some time ago that there's a project to connect A27 to A23 near Tolmezzo
The proposed Belluno - Tolmezzo link would be very expensive to build because of the very mountanious terrain. It will require many long tunnels and viaducts.
An easier option would be a motorway or expressway from the exit of Cimpello (A28) to the A23 near Gemona. It runs mostly across flat lands. There is already the short RA16 connecting A4 and SS13 near Cimpello. Other 30km between Cimpello and Sequals already exist as 2-lane limited-access road (SR177), that will be duplicated.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 09:59 PM   #6409
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actually i thought the same. Better connecting from Gemona to Cimpello, it's useful because crosses a industrialized area and it can absorb some traffic in A4 from Palmanova junction to Passante di Mestre.
Better than crossing mountains in small populated areas and destroying environment IMO
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Old November 21st, 2013, 10:36 PM   #6410
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actually i thought the same. Better connecting from Gemona to Cimpello, it's useful because crosses a industrialized area and it can absorb some traffic in A4 from Palmanova junction to Passante di Mestre.
Better than crossing mountains in small populated areas and destroying environment IMO
I agree. Also because the route from Mestre to Villach will be longer via Belluno and Tolmezzo, than via Pordenone and Gemona.
However, there are alteady plans for the extension of the A27 from Ponte delle Alpi to Pieve di Cadore.
In the 1960s there was a plan to connect Venice and Munich via Treviso - Conegliano - Belluno - Dobbiaco - Lienz - Kufstein - Rosenheim.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 11:37 PM   #6411
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TBM transport through the SS 640






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Old November 22nd, 2013, 10:55 AM   #6412
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What is your alternative for faster car traffic in Torino, then?
Taking the tram.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 02:57 PM   #6413
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Trams are awfully slow. Even cycling is faster (at least in NL).
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 03:25 PM   #6414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Trams are awfully slow. Even cycling is faster (at least in NL).
True, but here in Turin I still not dare cycling. I gave up driving too, because it's too dangerous. I commute (8.5 km, all within the city) by tram (1h+) or by bus+train(50'), which is slower than driving but infinitely safer.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 04:04 PM   #6415
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50-60 minutes for 8,5km is awfully too slow. However 8,5km is a quite long distance for everyday cycling, especially in harsh weather. Driving may be convenient if your workplace has reserved parking space and if you can avoid the most crowded arterial routes of the city.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 04:09 PM   #6416
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If you have to compete with a 60 minute public transport trip over 8 km, you can encounter huge traffic congestion and still be faster by car. Parking is probably the key here.

Studies in the Netherlands found that 90% of rush hour car trips take at least twice the time with public transport. The problem being that the far majority of the daily car trips are over relatively short distances public transport can not compete with, outside trips to the core city. However on average over 80-90% of employment in European cities is not in CBDs.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 04:15 PM   #6417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
50-60 minutes for 8,5km is awfully too slow. However 8,5km is a quite long distance for everyday cycling, especially in harsh weather. Driving may be convenient if your workplace has reserved parking space and if you can avoid the most crowded arterial routes of the city.
Problem is I have to change several lines, as there is no direct connection between my home and workplace. I have two main alternatives: tram #3 plus tram #4, which are quite frequent but slow; bus #60 plus SFM train + bus #63 which has three waiting times but is faster because the SFM train (normal train running underground like a subway) is fast.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
If you have to compete with a 60 minute public transport trip over 8 km, you can encounter huge traffic congestion and still be faster by car. Parking is probably the key here.

Studies in the Netherlands found that 90% of rush hour car trips take at least twice the time with public transport. The problem being that the far majority of the daily car trips are over relatively short distances public transport can not compete with, outside trips to the core city. However on average over 80-90% of employment in European cities is not in CBDs.
As a matter of fact driving for me would be faster, but I prefer taking the public transport nonetheless. It's cheaper and more relaxing.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 04:23 PM   #6418
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What about taxi?
I know in Timisoara, I often went to work with taxi, it was about 4 km, and returned home on foot. The taxi cost was around 1,75€.

If you had half the distance I would have recommanded also walking, but 8km takes to long to walk. Could be an option for returning after work if weather is nice.

Or maybe walk some part of it instead of changing lines?
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 04:36 PM   #6419
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What about taxi?
I know in Timisoara, I often went to work with taxi, it was about 4 km, and returned home on foot. The taxi cost was around 1,75€.
I guess I'd spend no less than 30 euro for my (one-way) commute by taxi.

Quote:
If you had half the distance I would have recommanded also walking, but 8km takes to long to walk. Could be an option for returning after work if weather is nice.

Or maybe walk some part of it instead of changing lines?
I already do sometimes. Train station is 1.5 km away from home, so sometimes I walk (also because the bus that would take me there is always crowded in the morning).

When I take the tram #3-tram #4 alternative, it already involves some walking (tram #4 stops almost 1 km from my workplace).

All in all it's doable, but weather is key. Time is more or less the same, but I have a go-as-you-please yearly ticket so I prefer taking the transports.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 04:42 PM   #6420
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Taxis are awfully expensive in western Europe, and I avoid them at all cost. Once I took a 5 minute ride to a railway station in France and it cost me over € 15.

Another incentive to use public transport besides parking is free travel. I have colleagues that use the train just because my employer pays for it, otherwise they would have to drive here (which saves most of them at least half the time) but pay for gas, perhaps a #2 car and parking fees (which are moderate though, only € 4 per day).
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