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Old December 28th, 2013, 02:27 PM   #6561
italystf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Many people are against "il ponte" because they think regions like Calabria, Basilicata and the islands couldn't or shouldn't have flashy state-of-the-art infrastructure while every single major project in other areas are still to be completed.

So any project (public, private or both) there was/has been heavily opposed on that basis: the Gioia Tauro port, A3, expansion of Lamezia Terme airport, modernization of SS106, 200km/h railway Palermo-Messina-Catania, expensive advanced monitoring on the Etna, ski resort expansion on the Silla area, desalination plants etc.

I'm not saying this is the case of SSC forumers, but a general attitude that regards these areas as some sort of Mafia-controlled depopulating areas that should be always behind on infrastructure.
It's not that people from Northern Italy don't want people from the South enjoying good services and infrastructures and want to keep them undeveloped.
The problem is that often projects in the South (but sometimes also in the North) are infiltrated by the mafia (colluded with local politicians, administrators, big construction firms). This lead to inefficency, since those works are done with much higher costs and times and much lower quality and safety.

Few days ago, toxic industrial waste have been discovered below the 3rd lane on the A4 near Brescia, that was completed 20 years ago.
It means that the company who built it was involved in an illegal activity of elimination of special waste (obviously individual environmental criminals don't dig below the highway to bury the stuff). And many cases like this have been discovered countrywide.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 28th, 2013, 02:27 PM   #6562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brick84 View Post
Catanzaro, Calabria

Bisantis bridge



http://www.brodyaga.com
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 28th, 2013, 02:32 PM   #6563
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Resources are not endless
A workforce-aged population, and even more so the taxes they generate, is around the peak in countries like Italy.

Like food, while there's not an infinite supply, there is not an exhaustible supply (as there is with oil, land, etc) - you can make more.

And tons of research has found that the increase in consumption in the developed world is much higher than the increase in consumption in developing countries where the population is rapidly growing - there's other, better, ways of reducing consumption than not having children.

The rapid decline in population is too fast - we need to breed a little bit below the replacement rate of just over 2 per woman, rather than making the next generation about 30% smaller than the one before with a birth rate of 1.4 that Italy has. Obviously there are massive political issues with trying to get people to have more children (though probably less than if you were pushing for a reduction), so we're kind of stuck with a rapidly-shrinking population. Worse is when we see that as an excuse not to reduce our ever-expanding consumption.

Japan has become a world leader in robotics to provide the elderly there with care - in about 10 years, if they don't trim down the number of people working to care for the rapidly growing number of elderly people, they won't be able to raise the money to pay for caring for the elderly. They are, demographically, maybe as much as 20 years ahead of Italy - not a pretty future.
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Old December 28th, 2013, 03:35 PM   #6564
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
A workforce-aged population, and even more so the taxes they generate, is around the peak in countries like Italy.

Like food, while there's not an infinite supply, there is not an exhaustible supply (as there is with oil, land, etc) - you can make more.

And tons of research has found that the increase in consumption in the developed world is much higher than the increase in consumption in developing countries where the population is rapidly growing - there's other, better, ways of reducing consumption than not having children.

The rapid decline in population is too fast - we need to breed a little bit below the replacement rate of just over 2 per woman, rather than making the next generation about 30% smaller than the one before with a birth rate of 1.4 that Italy has. Obviously there are massive political issues with trying to get people to have more children (though probably less than if you were pushing for a reduction), so we're kind of stuck with a rapidly-shrinking population. Worse is when we see that as an excuse not to reduce our ever-expanding consumption.

Japan has become a world leader in robotics to provide the elderly there with care - in about 10 years, if they don't trim down the number of people working to care for the rapidly growing number of elderly people, they won't be able to raise the money to pay for caring for the elderly. They are, demographically, maybe as much as 20 years ahead of Italy - not a pretty future.
It's difficult to push couples from developed countries to make more children. Until 50-60 years ago, and still today in poor countries, few people continued their studies and mostly started to work as pre-teens. Family roles were more strict, usually women staid at home to take care of their home and their children and "older" children helped their younger brothers. Having many childrens meaned more people working in the family farm, thus more production. Plus, the children mortality was dramatically high, so families felt the need to have more children.
In this socio-economical background, even with relatively low material resources, having many children was reasonable.

When the economic boom arrived, the society rapidly changed within a generation. Agricolture and industry became less labour-intensive and technical competencies became more important than the number of workers. Also human rights improved in developed countries, child labour became inacceptable, education above the elementary level became mandatory and women got more autonomy and started to work outside their home. Consumerism also began, so children started asking more than what their basical needs. Improvements of the health care and new medical discoveried drastically reduced the infant mortality rate.

In the modern society, having a lot of children, it's simply not practically feasible for most of couples because:
- Virtually everybody study till (s)he's 19 and many also start university. In this period, they usually don't work (except maybe for brief periods in the summer) so they need to be maintained and for a family with two standards wages, maintaining a lot of kids is a problem.
- New generations became adult later and are subjected to parental education and protection for a longer time than in the past. Leaving young kids alone is no longer acceptable like in the past.
- Many peoples, including women, started working outside home, thus having less time to take care of their children. Not everybody has grandparents or aunts who are in good health, have a lot of free time and live near home. Baby sitters are costly and some parents don't trust them.
- Longer parts of the social life (beside work) are spent outside someone's house\village\suburb. The world became "smaller", since comunication and transport infrastructure improved. Parents are more frequently outside home, so they also have less time to take care of many children. Children also want to go out more for sport, meeting friends,... and until they reach the appropriate age for autonomous movement they need to be accompanied.
- People are no longer satisfied with only basic food, clothes and other stuff. Young people demand a lot of things (sport, holidays, branded clothes, games, electronics) to live according to modern standards. And all this has a cost.
- It's no longer acceptable to fit a lot of people in a small house or flat and big houses have high costs.

Even if the welfare state may help family in several ways (contributes for education, health care,...), having a lot of children is no longer compatible with the modern way of life, except maybe for some very rich people. The increase of the elderly population, that slow down the developement since elderly need care and don't produce wealth, is an unintended consequence of the developement. And of course there's no solution to this problem.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 28th, 2013, 08:21 PM   #6565
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Preliminary works started a couple of months ago only in Turin direction from the toll barrier of Rho up to here: http://goo.gl/maps/V3dta

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What is the current status of the A4 Novara - Milano widening? Google Earth imagery from August 2013 shows it is completed from just east of the Ticino River to Milano, but what about the new bridge and points west?
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Old December 28th, 2013, 09:20 PM   #6566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
It's difficult to push couples from developed countries to make more children. Until 50-60 years ago, and still today in poor countries, few people continued their studies and mostly started to work as pre-teens. Family roles were more strict, usually women staid at home to take care of their home and their children and "older" children helped their younger brothers. Having many childrens meaned more people working in the family farm, thus more production. Plus, the children mortality was dramatically high, so families felt the need to have more children.
In this socio-economical background, even with relatively low material resources, having many children was reasonable.

When the economic boom arrived, the society rapidly changed within a generation. Agricolture and industry became less labour-intensive and technical competencies became more important than the number of workers. Also human rights improved in developed countries, child labour became inacceptable, education above the elementary level became mandatory and women got more autonomy and started to work outside their home. Consumerism also began, so children started asking more than what their basical needs. Improvements of the health care and new medical discoveried drastically reduced the infant mortality rate.

In the modern society, having a lot of children, it's simply not practically feasible for most of couples because:
- Virtually everybody study till (s)he's 19 and many also start university. In this period, they usually don't work (except maybe for brief periods in the summer) so they need to be maintained and for a family with two standards wages, maintaining a lot of kids is a problem.
- New generations became adult later and are subjected to parental education and protection for a longer time than in the past. Leaving young kids alone is no longer acceptable like in the past.
- Many peoples, including women, started working outside home, thus having less time to take care of their children. Not everybody has grandparents or aunts who are in good health, have a lot of free time and live near home. Baby sitters are costly and some parents don't trust them.
- Longer parts of the social life (beside work) are spent outside someone's house\village\suburb. The world became "smaller", since comunication and transport infrastructure improved. Parents are more frequently outside home, so they also have less time to take care of many children. Children also want to go out more for sport, meeting friends,... and until they reach the appropriate age for autonomous movement they need to be accompanied.
- People are no longer satisfied with only basic food, clothes and other stuff. Young people demand a lot of things (sport, holidays, branded clothes, games, electronics) to live according to modern standards. And all this has a cost.
- It's no longer acceptable to fit a lot of people in a small house or flat and big houses have high costs.

Even if the welfare state may help family in several ways (contributes for education, health care,...), having a lot of children is no longer compatible with the modern way of life, except maybe for some very rich people. The increase of the elderly population, that slow down the developement since elderly need care and don't produce wealth, is an unintended consequence of the developement. And of course there's no solution to this problem.
All that is true, however it's possible to do significantly better than you are doing. Both French and English have significantly more children than Italians. Swedes and Finns are way better as well.
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Old December 28th, 2013, 09:21 PM   #6567
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Vilesse toll station

image hosted on flickr

2013-12-28-103 by hofburgh4, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

2013-06-25-1226 by hofburgh4, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

20131228_184626 by hofburgh4, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

2013-12-19-056 by hofburgh4, on Flickr
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Old December 28th, 2013, 09:25 PM   #6568
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Pic not visible.
another one:


www.letreprovince.it
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Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Prima parte
Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Seconda parte
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Old December 28th, 2013, 09:45 PM   #6569
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Originally Posted by hofburg View Post
Vilesse toll station
Those pics are taken from the parking lot of the recently-opened Tiare shopping centre, the first Italian mall that includes an IKEA store.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 28th, 2013, 11:38 PM   #6570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post

All that is true, however it's possible to do significantly better than you are doing. Both French and English have significantly more children than Italians. Swedes and Finns are way better as well.
French and English are richer.
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Old December 28th, 2013, 11:45 PM   #6571
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I've accidentally stumbled upon this photo. Apparently the A34 is now completed all the way to the Slovenian border (which can be seen in the bottom left corner).
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Old December 28th, 2013, 11:53 PM   #6572
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French and English are richer.
So are Japanese and look at their situation. It's a lot about money, but it's certainly not only about that.
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Old December 29th, 2013, 12:11 AM   #6573
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I don't want to get much into the off-topic, but Italy has a critical factor that reduces fertility: in no other Western European country pre-2008 crisis has it been so difficult for young people to get a foothold on professional careers, on average. The crisis hit Spain and Portugal very hard, so maybe that changed now, but for almost 20 years before that Italy had been a very tough place to start your own independent life as young adult. If you got a good degree or some public employment, that could help. But for every other group, it has been brutal: temporary contract works, heavy bureaucracy for free-lancers, and a suffocating corporate culture that sees anyone younger than 35 as somehow not capable of handling big things (in politics multiply that number by 2, the Italian parliament has by far and large the highest average age in Europe). These are not exclusively Italian problems, but in Italy they have been present on society for a longer time there. If you can't get stable jobs, if you can't move out of your parents' house into something else than a shared living apartment with flatmates, and if at the same time you are educated enough to make some calculations, why would you want to further yourself into a more precarious situation by bringing a baby along?
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Old December 29th, 2013, 12:40 AM   #6574
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post

So are Japanese and look at their situation. It's a lot about money, but it's certainly not only about that.
The japanese are the least comparable of all the people in the world. I know them a little and they are the closest thing to aliens I can think of.

To me it's all about money and job. I have no money and only temporary jobs that require that I relocate every year or so. How can I start a family?
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Old December 29th, 2013, 12:57 AM   #6575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
The japanese are the least comparable of all the people in the world. I know them a little and they are the closest thing to aliens I can think of.

To me it's all about money and job. I have no money and only temporary jobs that require that I relocate every year or so. How can I start a family?
Ok, take the example of Swiss then. Hope you don't see us as aliens

On average probably the richest nation in Europe, very low unemployment and still only marginally more children than in Italy. Way less than in France or Sweden.

I don't want to go too much into off-topic here, but there are complex reasons for that beyond money (immigration, support for working mothers, cost and availability of child care, gender equality, societal pressure etc).
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Old December 29th, 2013, 01:12 AM   #6576
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Ok, take the example of Swiss then. Hope you don't see us as aliens
Definitely not.

Last edited by Verso; December 29th, 2013 at 04:08 AM.
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Old December 29th, 2013, 01:39 AM   #6577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
I've accidentally stumbled upon this photo. Apparently the A34 is now completed all the way to the Slovenian border (which can be seen in the bottom left corner).
yes I always forget to take photo of that part
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Old December 29th, 2013, 01:41 AM   #6578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Those pics are taken from the parking lot of the recently-opened Tiare shopping centre, the first Italian mall that includes an IKEA store.
look here, i am helping italian economy It is very nice shopping center, a small village of Vilesse got really 'big' with new motorway and open borders.

image hosted on flickr

20131228_184702 by hofburgh4, on Flickr
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Old December 29th, 2013, 02:17 AM   #6579
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I don't want to get much into the off-topic, but Italy has a critical factor that reduces fertility: in no other Western European country pre-2008 crisis has it been so difficult for young people to get a foothold on professional careers, on average. The crisis hit Spain and Portugal very hard, so maybe that changed now, but for almost 20 years before that Italy had been a very tough place to start your own independent life as young adult. If you got a good degree or some public employment, that could help. But for every other group, it has been brutal: temporary contract works, heavy bureaucracy for free-lancers, and a suffocating corporate culture that sees anyone younger than 35 as somehow not capable of handling big things (in politics multiply that number by 2, the Italian parliament has by far and large the highest average age in Europe). These are not exclusively Italian problems, but in Italy they have been present on society for a longer time there. If you can't get stable jobs, if you can't move out of your parents' house into something else than a shared living apartment with flatmates, and if at the same time you are educated enough to make some calculations, why would you want to further yourself into a more precarious situation by bringing a baby along?
Yes, getting a permanent job and a house isn't easy but this problem alone doesn't explain why couples with already a job and housing security make few children. The higher average marriage age could be an explaination but a couple can easily have 3 children even if they get married in their thirties, if no other difficulties are involved.

Don't forget the backward mentality in many Italian families, that try to keep the familiar bonds too strong preventing young boys and girls to move away from home and start their own careers.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 29th, 2013, 07:49 PM   #6580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Colbert View Post
Italy isn't on the verge of bankruptcy, this is only in your mind.

The 10 years State Bonds is around at 4%, far away the dangerous limit of 8%.

Italy's problems are only related to an asphyctic growing of our GDP, due to various problems, first of all to lack of investment in infrastructures.
No mate. It's not only in my mind. If you think that the spread from the BTP (State bonds) and the Deutscheland Bund is the only metric in stating if a country's economy is healty or not , well dude, you need wide lesson of basic econometry from the grounds up.
For starters, try to picture what a Deficit (not debt) over GDP ratio of 103% result in 20 years, which is precisely where ITaly is now after 20 years of sone criminal government.
Fist of all, the spread being low doesn't mean anyhow that the state il stable, as anyone having a very little knowledge of stock options, derivatives and any other stock items used to mask, redistribuite debt and lower responsabilities could figure out.
Then we can move the discussion to the complete absence of industry anyhow, the stagnation of trade and manufacturing, the deflagration of the social state towards an inefficient assistentialistic state, the briberies and the deficiencies of the administration infrastructure (sanitation, transport, telecommunications, and so on), ... etc etc etc
But yes, as you say, it's only in my mind, of course.
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