daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 8th, 2014, 12:43 PM   #6661
keber
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Slovenia
Posts: 9,878
Likes (Received): 1364

I wouldn't put floating pylons into Messina strait, especially not with a railway. This technology may work well with oil rigs but for bridges on open water (with all the strong currents, high waves and high winds) it is still unproven. Also it may work better with weaker earthquakes but with strong earthquakes where tectonic plates move considerably it's probably not much better.
keber no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 8th, 2014, 01:29 PM   #6662
Galro
Humanity through Urbanity
 
Galro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,361
Likes (Received): 10060

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
At the moment it's cancelled because of very high costs and technical challenges (very seismical area). However it's still possible that in the future decades, hopefully with better economy and construction techniques, someone will re-propose this project.
However I'm not optimist about this project. Apart the economic situation, that usually changes throghout the years and it's impossible to made long-term forecasts, there are serious technical challenges.
While 3,6km may look like a ridiculous lenght (in the world there are some 30km+ bridges and dozens of bridge longer than 3,6km exist), the Messina strait it's a particular case. Because of seismical activity, strong marine streams and high depth (circa 500m) it's impossible to build pillars in the middle, only a single span it's possible. The longest single span in the world is about 1,9km in Japan and it carries only road traffic because oscillations would be too dangerous to trains. With 500m+ deep water also a undersea tunnel isn't an option (the lowest in the world is somewhere in Norway, about 300m).
Are you sure about it being 500m+ deep? Wikipedia says that the deepest point is at 250m below the sea surface, but I don't know how accurate that is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Messina

Btw: Norway will soon build an even deeper tunnel; Rogfast, which have construction start this summer, will go down to around 380m.
Galro no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2014, 01:49 PM   #6663
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,457
Likes (Received): 2185

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galro View Post
Are you sure about it being 500m+ deep? Wikipedia says that the deepest point is at 250m below the sea surface, but I don't know how accurate that is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Messina

Btw: Norway will soon build an even deeper tunnel; Rogfast, which have construction start this summer, will go down to around 380m.
I checked carefully the Italian wikipedia. 500m refers to the depth near Reggio Calabria (further south the proposed bridge, where the strait is wider). In the narrowest point (Ganzirri - Punta Pezzo, 3,15km) the max depth is only 115m.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2014, 10:56 PM   #6664
brick84
Registered User
 
brick84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 40,805

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
At the moment it's cancelled because of very high costs and technical challenges (very seismical area).
It's not true.

(sorry, it's in italian)
Quote:
Progetto definitivo del ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Scheda tecnica

Verifica fattibilità tecnica

Strutturati e sviluppati processi di verifica, controllo, validazione, mai realizzati prima in Italia nell’ambito della progettazione delle opere pubbliche.
Oltre all’Area tecnica della Stretto di Messina, hanno preso parte al processo istruttorio esprimendo parere favorevole e validando il progetto, i seguenti soggetti:

- il Project Management Consultant (Pmc) - Parsons - ha verificato e monitorato, con i metodi più adeguati, tutte le variabili dei processi gestionali e delle tecniche progettuali, al fine di assicurare il rispetto degli standard di qualità, dei tempi e dei costi previsti per la realizzazione dell’opera. Il Pmc ha la responsabilità tecnica diretta in ordine al conseguimento delle prestazioni stabilite per l’opera, con particolare riguardo all’opera di attraversamento. Ha pertanto svolto un controllo tecnico indipendente della progettazione con impiego di mezzi, strumenti e tecnologie diversi ed autonomi rispetto a quelli utilizzati dal Contraente Generale Eurolink;

- il Soggetto Validatore - Rina Check S.r.l. – quale Organismo di Controllo Tecnico di terza parte, ha emesso l’Attestato Finale di Validabilità del progetto definitivo, come previsto da quadro normativo;

- il Comitato Scientifico, organo con funzione consultiva a supporto del Consiglio di Amministrazione della Società a cui sono attribuiti per legge compiti di consulenza tecnica anche ai fini della supervisione e dell’indirizzo delle attività tecniche progettuali, ha emesso il proprio parere favorevole. Il Comitato Scientifico, nominato d’intesa con il Ministro delle Infrastrutture Senatore Altero Matteoli, si compone di 9 membri di massima specializzazione ed esperienza. La carica di Coordinatore è rivestita dal Professor Ing. Giulio Ballio, già Rettore del Politecnico di Milano;

- l’Expert Panel, un organo a supporto della Direzione Generale della Stretto di Messina per le attività di Alta Sorveglianza, composto da Giorgio Diana (Direttore della Galleria del Vento del Politecnico di Milano CIRIVE), Ezio Faccioli (Professore Ordinario di Ingegneria sismica al Politecnico di Milano), Michele Jamiolkoski (Professore Emerito di Ingegneria Geotecnica del Politecnico di Torino) e Sascia Canale (Professore Ordinario di Ingegneria Civile ed Ambientale all’Università degli Studi di Catania), ha rilasciato pareri favorevoli rispettivamente per le tematiche aeroelastiche, sismiche, geotecniche ed ambientali.
...
...
Quadro geosismicotettonico ed aerodinamico

Quadro geo-sismotettonico - Revisione critica ed aggiornamento con le conoscenze ed i risultati scientifici più recenti (2003-2011) da parte di un team di esperti in geodinamica, geologia strutturale, sismologia, geodesia, geologia marina (La Sapienza – INGV). Confermato che l’allontanamento tra le due coste avviene con velocità inferiore a 0,5 mm/anno (10 cm in 200 anni), ininfluente ai fini della realizzazione del ponte.

• 7,1 magnitudo della scala Richter resistenza al sisma
Quadro aerodinamico - Impalcato aerodinamico di “terza generazione” stabile fino a velocità del vento di 270 km/h. La massima velocità registrata in oltre venti anni di monitoraggio continuo è stata di 128 km/h, raggiunta il 24 novembre del 1991 alle ore 6.10 del mattino.

• Studi aerodinamici su 11 modelli in 7 diversi laboratori, tra più importanti e specializzati al mondo. Canada, Danimarca, Germania, Italia, Regno Unito.

• aperto 365 giorni l’anno 24 ore al giorno. La chiusura del ponte non è prevista se non per eventi eccezionali (velocità del vento superiore a 110 km/h), che si possono verificare con cadenza più che decennale, in media meno di un’ora l’anno. Per venti intensi (dell’ordine di 90 km/h), che si possono verificare alcune ore all’anno, ci saranno prescrizioni sulla velocità massima dei veicoli telonati (come avviene nelle medesime condizioni sulle autostrade che conducono al ponte).
Please, someone translate.
__________________
"Sicilia rovina d'Italia e del forum" (cit.)


"Quello che facciamo per noi stessi,muore con noi quello che facciamo per gli altri e per il mondo rimane, ed e’ immortale" - Albert Pine.

Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Prima parte
Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Seconda parte
brick84 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2014, 11:14 PM   #6665
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,505
Likes (Received): 2112

It is canceled. Penalties were already paid and the ad hoc society was dissolved.
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2014, 11:23 AM   #6666
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,505
Likes (Received): 2112

Yesterday Italian Polizia Stradale (Road Police) published its annual report on incidents and road security.

Incidents went down 2.4% with respect to 2012: 80387 against 82385. Deadly ones went down even more: 15.2% (1616 vs 1906). Deaths went also down 14% (1791 vs 2082).

Tutor (SPECS) is now working on 2900 km of autostrade. It was on for 439,725 hours, the number of sanctions went down 12.43%. Vergilius (its state roads counterpart) measured a reduction in number of sanctions of 10%.

Carabinieri and Road police registered 2,180,825 infractions; points taken from licenses were 2,354,924.

Alcohol/drug controls were 1,716,437: 31,205 were sanctioned for driving under the influence of alcohol, 2416 for drugs. 994 vehicles were impounded.

http://online.stradeeautostrade.it/n...00014011099003
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2014, 11:24 AM   #6667
brick84
Registered User
 
brick84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 40,805

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
It is canceled. Penalties were already paid and the ad hoc society was dissolved.
??
Yes? when?
__________________
"Sicilia rovina d'Italia e del forum" (cit.)


"Quello che facciamo per noi stessi,muore con noi quello che facciamo per gli altri e per il mondo rimane, ed e’ immortale" - Albert Pine.

Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Prima parte
Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Seconda parte
brick84 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2014, 11:32 AM   #6668
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,505
Likes (Received): 2112

I think I'm wrong, penalties weren't paid yet. But the society was dissolved.
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2014, 12:26 PM   #6669
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,535
Likes (Received): 21242

That is a shame. Hopefully after next elections they bring the project alive again.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

brick84 liked this post
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2014, 03:31 PM   #6670
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,457
Likes (Received): 2185

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
994 vehicles were impounded.
In Italy, since a couple of years ago, if your alchool level is higher than 1,5 (legal limit 0,5) your vehicle is confiscated. This doesn't apply if you drive a someone else's vehicle.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2014, 04:12 PM   #6671
cinxxx
I ♥ Timişoara
 
cinxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: München
Posts: 22,236
Likes (Received): 18302

Do you get it back after that?
cinxxx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2014, 04:54 PM   #6672
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,505
Likes (Received): 2112

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Do you get it back after that?
Yes. People started exploiting this loophole: two people go to a bar with two cars, get drunk, and go back home driving one another's car. If they get caught DUI, cars won't be confiscated.
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2014, 05:24 PM   #6673
narkelion
Brentered
 
narkelion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: L'hondra
Posts: 19,672
Likes (Received): 16488

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Do you get it back after that?
If you're caught with more than 1,5 g/l, your car will be impounded and sold at a public auction. You won't get it back.

This only if the car you were driving is yours. As other said, if you drive somebody else's car this won't get impounded.

And I'd add that driving with more than 1,5 is not just a fine: it's a criminal offense. One of the few we still have in our Highway Code (along with driving without license at all and running away from a crash with injured people, and using a fake plate).
__________________
San Benedetto del Tronto (AP)
City:
47400
Urban Area: 100611
Metropolitan Area: 175818

2nd in Marche / 44th in Italy / n-th in European Union per popolazione
1st in Marche / 18th in Italy per qualità della vita
narkelion no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2014, 06:20 PM   #6674
WalkTheWorld
Ministry of Truth
 
WalkTheWorld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Room 101
Posts: 4,294
Likes (Received): 3519

I met a guy who got a €50.000 beemer confiscated. Tough shit.
__________________
Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.
WalkTheWorld no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2014, 06:29 PM   #6675
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,535
Likes (Received): 21242

1,5 mg/L is really something criminal to be driving your vehicle with. Not many people do that (thank God!)

I wish, though, they cracked down on the far larger number of people driving with alcohol around the 0.6 - 0.9 range. Confiscation of vehicle is too harsh for that, probably, but they should have something like a provision to impound it for up to 60 days + fine.

I'm actually in favor of temporary impounding as an effective deterrence measure for serious moving violations, and wish it was used more often. I think it has more pedagogical effects than just a fine, even an expensive one, which is often seen as a "money grab" tactic by the populace, whereas having your car stuck in a garage for several days has more pedagogical value, IMHO.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

narkelion, Autobahn-mann liked this post
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2014, 06:38 PM   #6676
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,505
Likes (Received): 2112

I agree. Just suspending the licence won't have any effect. People would continue driving without, given the unlikeliness of being controlled (I was stopped once in 15 years).
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2014, 06:58 PM   #6677
narkelion
Brentered
 
narkelion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: L'hondra
Posts: 19,672
Likes (Received): 16488

agree with both. Even with really small fines, I think that a temporary impoundig would work way more than a higher fine.

For example illegal parking. No fine, but your car is impounded for 60 days. I guess that many people would quit with parking illegally.
__________________

g.spinoza liked this post
narkelion no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2014, 07:11 PM   #6678
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,505
Likes (Received): 2112

Giving a fine is easy. Towing (and storing) a car is hard and expensive. This is never gonna happen, alas.
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 11th, 2014, 04:31 PM   #6679
brick84
Registered User
 
brick84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 40,805

Today opened the junction of Irosa on A19

Madonie mountains better connected with A19 Palermo-Catania







http://www.mobilitapalermo.org/mobpa...vincolo-irosa/
__________________
"Sicilia rovina d'Italia e del forum" (cit.)


"Quello che facciamo per noi stessi,muore con noi quello che facciamo per gli altri e per il mondo rimane, ed e’ immortale" - Albert Pine.

Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Prima parte
Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Seconda parte

g.spinoza liked this post
brick84 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 11th, 2014, 09:08 PM   #6680
bogdymol
bogdymod
 
bogdymol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 11,183

Some pictures I took in August on A22 between Modena and Mantua (Mantova):

Entering A22 from A1 near Modena:



Welcome on A22







Nice bridge:



Exiting at Mantova nord:



The motorway overpass bridge had an interesting design:



The access road to Mantova is quite nice:

__________________
Lived, Been, Drove in: A B BG BiH CH CZ D DK E F FIN FL GBZ GR H HR I IRL L M MNE P PL RO RSM S SK SLO SRB UK V
+ Australia, Hong Kong, Macau, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore, United Arab Emirates & United States of America
my clinched highways
My wife has just started a travel blog. Check it out here: makeitcount.blog
bogdymol no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
autobahn, autostrada, highways, italia, italy, motorways

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium