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Old February 5th, 2014, 10:49 AM   #6781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I also feel the northern bypass is too far out (nearly twice the length) and will only be useful during summer weekends.
Actually it is just 45% longer or 9 km (21 km vs 30 - approximately, give or take 1 km). Passante di Mestre is 20 % longer than old direct route (27,5 vs. 33 km).
However I miss more direct link to A1 in direction south that would give better advantage to A13-A1-south transit.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 11:05 AM   #6782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Actually it is just 45% longer or 9 km (21 km vs 30 - approximately, give or take 1 km
I'ts 20 against 39, actually, so basically 100% more as Chris said.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 11:28 AM   #6783
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If I put both alignments into AutoCAD (with printscreen which is enough) and measure them both then I get 21 vs. 30 km, as I wrote before. Which is logical even if you compare them just visually - blue line can't be twice as long as green between both interchanges.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 11:32 AM   #6784
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Also from Google Maps, I measured it and it seems to be 21 vs 29/30...
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Old February 5th, 2014, 11:53 AM   #6785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Current a14 will be merged with current tangenziale.
So the old A14 will be 2x5 there.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 12:06 PM   #6786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
If I put both alignments into AutoCAD (with printscreen which is enough) and measure them both then I get 21 vs. 30 km, as I wrote before. Which is logical even if you compare them just visually - blue line can't be twice as long as green between both interchanges.
There have been several different projects of Passante Nord, maybe the one I posted was the shorter one Autostrade per l'Italia proposed. The project now under consideration is the 39-km one.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 12:07 PM   #6787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
So the old A14 will be 2x5 there.
I'm not sure but I don't think so.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 12:09 PM   #6788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I'm not sure but I don't think so.
Will they reduce it? Why?
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Old February 5th, 2014, 12:13 PM   #6789
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Originally Posted by narkelion View Post
Will they reduce it? Why?
5 lanes per direction are disproportioned to the city needs, and it would attract long distance drivers who wouldn't want to take the longer (and narrower) passante.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 12:19 PM   #6790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
5 lanes per direction are disproportioned to the city needs, and it would attract long distance drivers who wouldn't want to take the longer passante.
It's just a matter of money, so. To raise more from toll on the new passante, because it's longer...

I think that once you have an infrastructure, you can only improve it... Not reduce.
Why would they spend money to reduce it, when you can leave it there?
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Old February 5th, 2014, 12:26 PM   #6791
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What will be the suggested route for Padova - Firenze? Will it be Passante Nord - A14 (westbound) - A1×A14 intersection - A1 (southeastbound)?
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Old February 5th, 2014, 12:52 PM   #6792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
There have been several different projects of Passante Nord, maybe the one I posted was the shorter one Autostrade per l'Italia proposed. The project now under consideration is the 39-km one.
Maybe it will start further east and/or be extended to A1. With interchanges from above map 39 km long variant would lead north of Bologna Interporto exit.

Or is a typo in press release and it should be 29 instead of 39?
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Old February 5th, 2014, 12:55 PM   #6793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Maybe it will start further east and/or be extended to A1. With interchanges from above map 39 km long variant would lead north of Bologna Interporto exit.

Or is a typo in press release and it should be 29 instead of 39?
No typos, there were three (main) projects: one (short passante) 30 km long, another one (long passante) about 41, and this one (39, basically the same of long passante).

Try this one:

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Old February 5th, 2014, 12:56 PM   #6794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Actually it is just 45% longer or 9 km (21 km vs 30 - approximately, give or take 1 km). Passante di Mestre is 20 % longer than old direct route (27,5 vs. 33 km). However I miss more direct link to A1 in direction south that would give better advantage to A13-A1-south transit.
I am also not sure whether the Passante di Mestre is a reasonable comparison. Fifteen years ago, traffic around both Bologna and Mestre was equally tricky. For both towns a solution was introduced. Mestre had the complete bypass and Bologna the duplication with separate local lanes. Both solutions seem to work, except that Bologna gets pretty saturated on days with a lot of holiday traffic on the A14. Otherwise, I feel that the situation on the A14 at Bologna is reasonable (I regard Florence as being much more in need of a solution for through traffic), but Bologna somehow decided that one solution was not enough.

It may be a form of environmental concern; that they want through traffic out of town. But they will not achieve that with such a big bypass.
The fact that traffic between Padova and Roma will have to take the old route won't help either. But maybe the good folks in Bologna rely on North-South traffic to or from Veneto switching to the E45/E55 that is scheduled to be upgraded to full motorway.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 01:09 PM   #6795
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Try this one:
25 km vs. 40 km = 15 km or 60% difference
goes north of Bologna Interporto exit. Maybe that is also the plan, to divert truck traffic, not holiday traffic.

As for Firenze I went there several times during holiday traffic and I think that problems of Firenze traffic lie north and south of Firenze.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 02:32 PM   #6796
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
5 lanes per direction are disproportioned to the city needs, and it would attract long distance drivers who wouldn't want to take the longer (and narrower) passante.
Quote:
Originally Posted by narkelion View Post
It's just a matter of money, so. To raise more from toll on the new passante, because it's longer...

I think that once you have an infrastructure, you can only improve it... Not reduce.
Why would they spend money to reduce it, when you can leave it there?

The old motorway around Bologna will be free of charge, since the frontage roads with many local exits will be integrated with the motorway. There will be two toll plazas at the begining and end of the old motorway. So, using the old route will mean stopping at two toll booths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
As for Firenze I went there several times during holiday traffic and I think that problems of Firenze traffic lie north and south of Firenze.
Traffic problems north of Florence will be only bad memories with the opening of the Variante di Valico, scheduled in 2015.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 04:50 PM   #6797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Traffic problems north of Florence will be only bad memories with the opening of the Variante di Valico, scheduled in 2015.
True, there were always congestions right into the hills on old 2+2 autostrada. Expansion of A1 around Firenze helped to remove congestions a lot.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 07:51 PM   #6798
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The widening at Florence has reduced part of the pressure, but it remains a very busy stretch where accidents that block the A1 for hours are statistically more likely than is desirable for a strategically vital stretch like the A1. A form of separation between local traffic and through traffic could be a solution, leaving 2x3 to the through traffic. An alternative would be a full ring road or an external bypass some five to ten kilometers west of the current route.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 07:59 PM   #6799
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In Florence there is already a separation between local and national traffic, at least towards Bologna.
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Old February 7th, 2014, 12:20 PM   #6800
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Here's a more explicative picture:


red -> very long passante (old project)
yellow -> long passante (current project)
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