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Old April 28th, 2014, 07:55 PM   #7001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
It would resolve an issue that many European countries have to deal with: the non-motorways with the lowest numbers have generally lost their importance because they now service corridors much better serviced by motorways, while the non-motorways that truly supplement the motorway system tend to have much higher numbers.
What you're proposing exists in Slovenia, but I can't really say I like it.
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Old April 28th, 2014, 08:31 PM   #7002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Just a note: SP*** roads are provincial roads and each of our 110 provinces has its own numbering scheme. So, SP12 alone, without saying in which province it is, has no meaning, it can be anywhere in Italy.
SS*** and SR*** roads, instead, are unique.
SR*** are regional roads, so each region should have their own too.
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
there could be two or more roads in Italy with the same SR denomination (I don't know if there actually are).
So, what should be the correct numbering? Is the numbering of these projects clear without ambiguity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
SS106: Nova Siri Scalo bypass 12 5km (September 2011 to Spring 2014) – projectmap
SS318: Valfabbrica – Pianello 12 8.5km (2009 to Spring 2014) – projectmap
SS640: Agrigento – Canicatti 2 8km (March 2009 to Summer 2014) – projectmap
SP14: Segrate – Vignate 21 6.7km (2010 to 2014) – projectmap
SP14: Vignate – Liscate (A58) 12 5.2km (2010 to 2014) – projectmap
SS106: Gioiosa-East – Gioiosa Jonica 12 3.5km (September 2011 to December 2014) – projectmap
SS106: Roccella Jonica-Canne – Gioiosa-East 12 8km (? to December 2014) – projectmap
SS77: Colfiorito – Bavareto 12 9km (November 2009 to December 2014) – projectmap
SS77: Foligno (SS3) – Colfiorito 12 19km (November 2009 to Early 2015) – projectmap
SS77: Bavareto – Pontelatrave 12 8km (November 2009 to Early 2015) – projectmap
SP103: Pioltello - Pozzuolo Martesana (A58) 21 6.8km (2008 to 2015) – projectmap
SP415: Spino d'Adda – Dovera 21 6.5km (July 2013 to 2015) – projectmap
SS223: Monticiano – Civitella Paganico 2 11km (2013 to 2015) – projectmap
SS534: Spezzano Albanese-Terme – Sibari Marina 2 14km (November 2013 to December 2015) – projectmap
SS640: Cannemaschi – Caltanissetta (A19) 2 34km (April 2012 to 2016) – projectmap
SS76: Albacina – Serra San Quirico 2 11km (Early 2009 to suspended) – projectmap
SS76: Fossato di Vico – Cancelli di Fabriano 2 7km (Early 2009 to suspended) – projectmap
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Old April 28th, 2014, 08:39 PM   #7003
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They old Strada Statale system was fine. I don't understand why roads have to be renumbered after they are transferred to another administrative division. France also destroyed its fine route national numbering system because of the decentralization. Why can't a regional government maintain a road with a national route number? It shouldn't matter for motorists who owns the route #1 or #999.
they have done it in Croatia, too. dunno, D28 enters to area of Bjelovar municipality and it suddenly becomes ˇC3300
also, "A" roads (motorways) here can be only those which are under jurisdiction of one of 4 concessionaires. if national road managment company builds a motorway and keeps it under their jurisdiction, it will probably get name D436 or something like that.
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Old April 28th, 2014, 09:43 PM   #7004
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I have a question, after driving in Italy.
Not considering lane hogging, over-speeding and other driving habits

Is there a rule when a limitation is canceled, without driving up to a cancellation sign? I found myself in this situation many times (also on motorways), and I didn't know if I could speed up again or not. And since most drivers didn't give a fudge about speed limitations, it was hard to figure it out.

I think exit signs from localities are also missing from time to time. Or maybe I got to hard used to excellent and rigorous signage in Germany and Austria

As a bonus fact, I felt in Italy like home (Romania)
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Old April 28th, 2014, 10:13 PM   #7005
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On controlled-accessed rodas, you can assume that an on-ramp that is not followed by a speed signs means it is a highway with blank maximum speed.
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Old April 28th, 2014, 10:48 PM   #7006
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On controlled-accessed rodas, you can assume that an on-ramp that is not followed by a speed signs means it is a highway with blank maximum speed.
The same on non-controlled-accessed roads: the blank speed limit begins at the first intersection, unless otherwise signposted (after the intersection).
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old April 28th, 2014, 11:10 PM   #7007
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I knew this rule from when I got my drivers license in RO.
Maybe I just used to how in Germany (at least in the parts I drove) you almost always get a cancellation sign or a sign with a different speed limit, be it motorway, expressway, outside or local roads.
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Old April 29th, 2014, 12:03 AM   #7008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
So, what should be the correct numbering? Is the numbering of these projects clear without ambiguity?

SS106: Nova Siri Scalo bypass 12 5km (September 2011 to Spring 2014) – project – map
SS318: Valfabbrica – Pianello 12 8.5km (2009 to Spring 2014) – project – map
SS640: Agrigento – Canicatti 2 8km (March 2009 to Summer 2014) – project – map
SP14: Segrate – Vignate 21 6.7km (2010 to 2014) – project – map
SP14: Vignate – Liscate (A58) 12 5.2km (2010 to 2014) – project – map
SS106: Gioiosa-East – Gioiosa Jonica 12 3.5km (September 2011 to December 2014) – project – map
SS106: Roccella Jonica-Canne – Gioiosa-East 12 8km (? to December 2014) – project – map
SS77: Colfiorito – Bavareto 12 9km (November 2009 to December 2014) – project – map
SS77: Foligno (SS3) – Colfiorito 12 19km (November 2009 to Early 2015) – project – map
SS77: Bavareto – Pontelatrave 12 8km (November 2009 to Early 2015) – project – map
SP103: Pioltello - Pozzuolo Martesana (A58) 21 6.8km (2008 to 2015) – project – map
SP415: Spino d'Adda – Dovera 21 6.5km (July 2013 to 2015) – project – map
SS223: Monticiano – Civitella Paganico 2 11km (2013 to 2015) – project – map
SS534: Spezzano Albanese-Terme – Sibari Marina 2 14km (November 2013 to December 2015) – project – map
SS640: Cannemaschi – Caltanissetta (A19) 2 34km (April 2012 to 2016) – project – map
SS76: Albacina – Serra San Quirico 2 11km (Early 2009 to suspended) – project – map
SS76: Fossato di Vico – Cancelli di Fabriano 2 7km (Early 2009 to suspended) – project – map
All SS's here listed are real Strada Statale.
SP14 "Rivoltana" and SP103 "Cassanese" belong to province Milan.
SP415 "Paullese" (at least the stretched here reported) belongs to province Lodi.

Maybe it's better specified, because there are lots of SP14's, for instance, in other provinces.
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Old April 29th, 2014, 12:22 AM   #7009
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SP415 is the former SS415. Lombardy doesn't have SRs.
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Maybe it's better specified, because there are lots of SP14's, for instance, in other provinces.
Coincidence, around the city of Trieste, there are SS14, SR14 and SP14 within few kilometers.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old April 29th, 2014, 12:26 AM   #7010
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That's what I said. SP415 belongs to province Lodi.
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Old April 29th, 2014, 12:28 AM   #7011
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
That's what I said. SP415 belongs to province Lodi.
I know, it was just to explain to foreigners.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old April 29th, 2014, 01:47 AM   #7012
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Originally Posted by narkelion View Post
There are some roads that simply cannot change number, such as Aurelia (SS1), Flaminia (SS3), Salaria (SS4), Tiburtina (SR5), Appia (SS7), Emilia (SS9), Adriatica (SS16), Abetone e Brennero (SS12), Jonica (SS17), Padana inferiore and superiore (SS10 and 11) and so on. I cannot imagine other numbers for those. As well as some highways, like A1.
Sounds like more of a question of "won't change" than of "cannot change". One might say that, in being so conservative, older generations withhold future generations a logical and coherent numbering system, but surely everybody will find logic, coherence and cost arguments in favour of the current system. Anyway, one should probably be realistic for many of these routes well embedded in Italian consciousness. On the other hand, though, the French have ruthlessly brought their comparable routes into four-digit D-numbers, so never say never.

Anyway, those 'useless but classical' numbers aside, the main problem to tackle is not really that SS9 is completely bypassed by A1 and A14 and therefore arguably not worth a low number. It is the important routes that are stuck somewhere with high numbers. Most of the time, they were only added to the SS-system when a route was needed between a motorway and an important town; or the route was previously in the SS-system but a backwater road until it started to form the connection to a motorway. Prime examples would be SS675 (Civitavecchia - Terni) but also a superstrada like SS434 (Verona - Rovigo). And of course there is the SS106, which sits in the primary network of SS-routes, but at a place where not many people would recognise it as such.

A reconciliation between these principles might be found in combining A-routes and principal statali into one numbering system in which the non-autostrade get a new prefix - maybe N would work. An important Statale like 3bis would be taken into this new class and could become something like N2 (A2 if upgraded). Existing A-numbers could be retained as much as possible, particularly the lower ones, but diramirazioni and routes like A4/A5 would obtain new A-numbers. And the class of SS-routes and SR2 would just be one of pretty unimportant routes, in which Aurelia can remain SS1, Cassia SR2 etc. Just to serve historical and hilarical purposes.
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Last edited by -Pino-; April 29th, 2014 at 09:10 AM.
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Old April 29th, 2014, 09:56 AM   #7013
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I know I said this before, but I think this is something that concerns only us road-nerds. This kind of administrative numbering is useful to administrations themselves, and given the fact that Italian drivers don't give squat about road numbers, this situation is never going to change: too big the effort and the expense, too little to gain.
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Old April 29th, 2014, 01:20 PM   #7014
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Fully appreciate the point, but it is a chicken-and-egg story. Without rationalisation of the route numbers and, most importantly, route numbers being signposted decently, nobody will ever care. And since us road nerds tend to agree that good road numbers will eventually help the motorist, why not break the deadlock? Eventually, the story 'nobody bothers' is not uniquely Italian. The story is as old as signposted route numbers; just refer to the stories behind the introduction of US Routes in the 1920s. And just look at how Americans look at road numbers these days. The story also somehow surfaced in Australia, where state governments decided to invest in newly signposted route numbers because the old system deserved an overhaul - all this despite Australians commonly preferring highway names over highway number. I see it in the Netherlands, too, where national road numbers were first signposted in the 1970s and have slowly creeped into the national consciousness (and wayfinding) maybe only in the last 15 years or so.

In a way, the question is not about the current generation that is less interested, but about what you can do for future generations of motorists. But I appreciate that this is not the way politicians or pubic servants tend to spend their energy and funding.
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Old April 29th, 2014, 01:41 PM   #7015
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And since us road nerds tend to agree that good road numbers will eventually help the motorist,
I am a road-nerd but I don't agree to that. Inconsistent road numbers never prevented me, or anyone in Italy for that matter, to reach my destination. This is going to be even more true in future due to gps availability.

I like consistency in road numbers but just from a conceptual point of view.
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Old April 29th, 2014, 02:20 PM   #7016
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I never said that an irrational route numbering system prevents people from reaching their destination. A rational and well-signposted route numbering system is, in a way, the ideal situation, but people will find their way without one. GPS is only a further ancillary step.
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Old April 29th, 2014, 03:50 PM   #7017
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I never said that an irrational route numbering system prevents people from reaching their destination. A rational and well-signposted route numbering system is, in a way, the ideal situation, but people will find their way without one.
An ideal situation, agreed, but to whom? If people don't need them to drive to destination, why an administration should spend money to implement a different system?

Quote:
GPS is only a further ancillary step.
Maybe now. I think in future GPS - and European Galileo - will be used more. Maybe not to find a destination per se, but think about directions to avoid traffic jams, for instance. People will leave on their gps more and more, even just to commute. The result, less and less people will *think* in terms of roads and route numbers, and more in terms of that pinky line on the screen.
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Old April 29th, 2014, 04:09 PM   #7018
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To be honest, I am not sure. People may no longer think in route numbers as a tool to plan their routes upfront, but people will need reassurance that they are on the right way. This is something that might be given through five focal points on each directional sign or reassurance sign, but arguably a logical and well signposted route number tied to ONE focal point is a more efficient way of achieving the same end result. It would be cheaper too, if you look at the huge stack signs that could be 'reduced'.

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Old April 29th, 2014, 09:59 PM   #7019
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I think that we need a separate numbering scheme for Strade Extraurbane Principali (expressways\motorway-like roads), like they do in other countries (Austria, Slovenia, Poland,...). The prefix Sx could be an option. It may be consistent with the motorway numbers (for example the S26 between Gravellona Toce and Domodossola after the end of the A26, or the S4 Trieste bypass after the end of the A4, with the current RA13 included in A4).
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old May 2nd, 2014, 05:39 PM   #7020
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Is this the new format for vehicle registration plates in Italy?
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