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Old August 5th, 2014, 12:33 PM   #7261
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I like the A10, A12 through Genua. Nice and bendy, great views and lots of tunnels. There is a low speed limit on there, but nobody takes the blindest bit of notice...
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Old August 5th, 2014, 12:58 PM   #7262
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I drove FR Border/Ventimiglia - Rome once and the entire motorway was utterly crap with heavy traffic until I reached Pisa and finally found a modern motorway...plus I had to go through Genoa not around it.

Mind you I drove Reggio di Calabria to Rome in 1990 as well, that was a horrible drive until I passed Napoli. At least they are working hard on that motorway nowadays but Pisa to FR.Border will be crap for a looooong time.
Coming from France and driving on A10 gives you the impression the highway is not so good.

But despite the evidence it has a couple of better things respect French A8.
First of all it has not steep climbs (on A8 there are escape 'lanes' for trucks going toward Nice in case of breaks malfuncion due to the steepness) and then A10 got draining asphalt while A8 hasn't got.

I used to cross Ventimiglia border quite often, and coming from France while raining you literally can't see anything. Once you're on Italian A10 you have just to note that what you thought it was a storm it is just a little drizzle.
No kidding.

I don't mind having tons of eletronic signage (just saying 'Rappel 90' all the time) and glittering tunnels that look like christmas trees if every time it rains I can't see the road

Then A10 has tons of problems due to its age. First of all tunnels adjustment to modern safety standards. But it's hard because there are a lots of tunnels and to improve 'em you need a lot of money.
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Old August 5th, 2014, 02:47 PM   #7263
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Has A35 any importance so that it does not reach Milan at present?
It was not designed to reach Milan. And it never will. A35 connects to External tangenziale... if you really have to reach the city, you will have to drive "Rivoltana" or "Cassanese" roads, motorway-like connectors.

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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
I drove FR Border/Ventimiglia - Rome once and the entire motorway was utterly crap with heavy traffic until I reached Pisa and finally found a modern motorway...plus I had to go through Genoa not around it.
It's not the best motorway in the world but I don't think it's "crap".
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Old August 5th, 2014, 02:48 PM   #7264
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Draining asphalt is a big plus for italian highways. I had the same experience when crossing the slovenian border during a rainy day.

Slovenian A3 +A1 was quite scary due to the combination of rain and steep climbs.

A4 from Trieste to Venice (which is the worst part of A4) looked way safer despite the problems we all know.

Same applies to italian A10 vs French A8. The latter is by no means a nice highway. A10 would need renovation works but again, take a look around: are you surprised that the Genova bypass hasn't been built yet? It would cost billions of euro.
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Old August 5th, 2014, 03:18 PM   #7265
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According to this source (not a professional one, but a neat and detailed compilation of highway special structures in Italy), there are 116 westbound tunnels on A10 between Genova and the French border on A10 and 122 on eastbound lanes.

On A12 all the way down to Cecina there are another 57 tunnels per direction.

The total combined length traveled underground by a driver going all the way from French border to Cecina will be 86km.

The mere fact this highway link exists, and has existed for decades, is an impressive feature.
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Old August 5th, 2014, 09:49 PM   #7266
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Many italian highways built in the 60's and 70's are indeed impressive from an engineering point of view.

A3, A1 Firenze-Bologna, A10, A12, A24...
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Old August 5th, 2014, 11:23 PM   #7267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
According to this source (not a professional one, but a neat and detailed compilation of highway special structures in Italy), there are 116 westbound tunnels on A10 between Genova and the French border on A10 and 122 on eastbound lanes.

On A12 all the way down to Cecina there are another 57 tunnels per direction.

The total combined length traveled underground by a driver going all the way from French border to Cecina will be 86km.

The mere fact this highway link exists, and has existed for decades, is an impressive feature.
Absolutely. I'd also like to add that the railway going in the same direction is equally impressive and with even more tunnels.

Three years ago I drove from Genoa to the French border (en route to Nice) using exclusively the small roads hugging the coastline. Very beautiful, but also very slow even before the start of the proper tourist season.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 01:32 AM   #7268
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Many italian highways built in the 60's and 70's are indeed impressive from an engineering point of view.

A3, A1 Firenze-Bologna, A10, A12, A24...
Absolutely. Brilliant engineering and many of Europes most impressive viaducts to this very day are Italian built from the 1970s.

What I could never understand was how crap the alignments/safety features and laybys and road/lane widths are on some of these roads, the A10 and A12 in particular. There is absolutely no safety margin in the design.

The A3 had an unfortunate history that had nothing to do with design standards as such.

After all Italy had been building motorways for 50 years by the time the A10 / A12 were built and of all countries Italy surely must have realised how inadequate these roads were.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 02:37 AM   #7269
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It is now that simple. Viaducts and especially tunnels have costs heavily linked to their dimensions. Those extra 3m x 120 tunnels would add a lot of cost.

It was either a substandard route, or no motorway.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 10:43 AM   #7270
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After all Italy had been building motorways for 50 years by the time the A10 / A12 were built.
Autostrada, yes, but motorways, no. Italy did not built any true motorways (dual carriageways) until the late 1950s. The pre-World War II autostrade did not have divided carriageways. They were among the more modern roads in Europe, especially in the 1920s and first half of the 1930s, but not motorways in today's sense.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 11:45 AM   #7271
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The very first "motorways" have had single carriageway. Double carriageway was an innovation of the early 30ies. To follow this trend, Italy should have scrapped all his plans for motorways to build something it didn't have the money for (and also construction tecniques). What Italy build was "state-of-the-art".
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Old August 6th, 2014, 01:34 PM   #7272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fab87 View Post
Draining asphalt is a big plus for italian highways. I had the same experience when crossing the slovenian border during a rainy day.

Slovenian A3 +A1 was quite scary due to the combination of rain and steep climbs.

A4 from Trieste to Venice (which is the worst part of A4) looked way safer despite the problems we all know.

Same applies to italian A10 vs French A8. The latter is by no means a nice highway. A10 would need renovation works but again, take a look around: are you surprised that the Genova bypass hasn't been built yet? It would cost billions of euro.
A4 from Trieste to Venice is in my opinion best part of a motorway,because asphalt is great and terrain is very flat,so there are not so many curves.And i don't think that A10 is so bad.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 01:36 PM   #7273
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A4 is pretty flat and curve-free all the way from Trieste to Turin. But between Verona and Milan it's very busy.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 04:06 PM   #7274
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I was browsing through Google Earth due to the opening of A35, and I noticed there is *a lot* of highway construction going on east of Milano. Most are related to A35 and A58, but there's a massive upgrade of road infrastructure, with new bypasses, four-lane highways and grade-separation.
I found some videos showing works in progress

SP 103 'Cassanese'




SP 14 'Rivoltana'


SS 415 'Paullese' (not linked with A35, but it will interchange with TEEM)
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Old August 6th, 2014, 08:34 PM   #7275
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Do I read it correctly that the Renzi government made available € 10.4 billion (!) for an autostrada from Orte to Mestre?

http://www.governo.it/governoinforma...a-cantieri.pdf
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Old August 6th, 2014, 08:39 PM   #7276
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Do I read it correctly that the Renzi government made available € 10.4 billion (!) for an autostrada from Orte to Mestre?

http://www.governo.it/governoinforma...a-cantieri.pdf
It appears so. Frankly, I think it's a little more than a boutade. I haven't the slightest idea about where he can find the total 30 billion for the 14 projects in the decree.

1- HSR Bari-Naples (2.9 G€)
2- HSR Turin-Lyon (2.9 G€)
3- Railway Messina-Catania-Palermo (5.25 G€)
4- Autostrada Orte-Mestre "Nuova Romea" (10.4 G€)
5- Autostrada A31 "Valdastico" north (1.031 G€)
6- Autostrada A52 "Tangenziale nord di Milano" completion (55 M€)
7- Autostrada A14 "Passante di Bologna" (1.3 G€)
8- Autostrada "Cispadana" Reggiolo-Ferrara (1.2 G€)
9- Superstrada Lioni-Grottaminarda b/w A16 and A3 (200 M€)

the other 5 projects are for upgrading airports of Genoa, Milan, Rome, Venice, Florence.

Last edited by g.spinoza; August 6th, 2014 at 08:46 PM.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 09:02 PM   #7277
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If so much money is to be invest, priority #1 should be restarting the Messina Strait Bridge project
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Old August 6th, 2014, 09:04 PM   #7278
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Do I read it correctly that the Renzi government made available € 10.4 billion (!) for an autostrada from Orte to Mestre?

http://www.governo.it/governoinforma...a-cantieri.pdf
Yep. Map of that motorway here.



The Italian Government also plans to ditch a load of road and rail projects from their medium term capital program. ( out to 2020+ I'd think)

Sadly this includes the A10 Genoa bypass....not that I plan on driving the A10 ever again and a third lane on the eastern part of the A4 is also pushed way back.

The Brenner Base Tunnel southern approach is off the list as well, I'd say the Austrians will be well impressed with that.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 09:28 PM   #7279
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Isn't the new Orte-Mestre going to be the upgrade of the actual SS3 bis, aka E45?

I've never seen this map you posted.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 09:41 PM   #7280
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Isn't the new Orte-Mestre going to be the upgrade of the actual SS3 bis, aka E45? I've never seen this map you posted.
Google offered it up, any chance they'll finish the Galleria Della Guinza then?
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