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Old August 21st, 2014, 03:49 PM   #7341
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I quote myself to continue the trip report of SS 115 in Sicily

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SS 115 Siracusa-Trapani (Sicily)

Driven from Pozzallo (Rg) to Agrigento.

Arriving in Agrigento










Around the city, the archeological ruins of "Valle dei Templi":





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Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Prima parte
Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Seconda parte

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Old August 21st, 2014, 03:52 PM   #7342
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Back to Pozzallo (Rg)

Direction way Palma di Montechiaro (Ag) --> Licata






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Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Prima parte
Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Seconda parte

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Old August 21st, 2014, 08:08 PM   #7343
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Quote:
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I am agree with you. Exactly, politicians in Calabria mean it for the first years (so not immediately) to "recover all the problems" since now.
"All the problems"? That's exactly the way of thinking that has to be avoided, rejected. They had problems because the motorway was toll free. So the problems they had until now, is just the right fee for having driven free for decades. Of course all of them using the motorway, not only locals.
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Old August 21st, 2014, 08:22 PM   #7344
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A highway like A3 needs constant maintenance and advanced monitoring systems. It pays off in the long turn to install all sorts of gadgetry to monitor tunnels and tall viaducts and embankments. It also pays off to take much car of new systems like drainage on slopes and the likes. This requires a level of attention that I don't think ANAS would give. Instead, due to their eternal cash-strapped situation, they would just defer some maintenance elsewhere.

I toll put on a completed A3 would be that expensive, most works are done. Actually, I think they should finish the roadway project, then put it in a concession whereas those various new junctions and exits that need to be rebuilt (marked as red dots on the maps above) are built by the concessionaire.

Another tempting alternative is to resurrect the Messina Strait bridge and finance it partially with tolls to be charged on A3 (gov't would still finance a part of it and so would Trenitalia).

A less ambitious approach would be requiring several upgrades to roads that give access to A3 as part of a concession package.
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Old August 21st, 2014, 10:25 PM   #7345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pccvspw999 View Post
"All the problems"? That's exactly the way of thinking that has to be avoided, rejected. They had problems because the motorway was toll free. So the problems they had until now, is just the right fee for having driven free for decades. Of course all of them using the motorway, not only locals.
Driving where and which conditions?
A3 SA-RC is one of reasons because Calabria is the poorest region in Italy. Economy never grows without efficient infrastructures systems.


P.S.
"All the problems" was not my words.
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Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Prima parte
Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Seconda parte
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Old August 22nd, 2014, 12:26 AM   #7346
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It was clear that those words were not Yours, and my critics weren't directed to You. It was only rethoric questioning. Anyway: Calabria had his modern motorway for years until it became scrappy, but no sign of economic progess occured during that time. The condition of Calabria isn't due to insufficient /inefficient infrastructures but to "social disease" in every structure and organization.
A3 has to be tolled as soon it is ready, even earlier, even now! Else it will turn again in a decadent and dangerous and at least useless road.
It was a mistake to have it made toll free since ever.
Politicians (local?) saying what You've quoted are simply irresponsible!
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Old August 22nd, 2014, 12:45 AM   #7347
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Let's not take it to extremes. A3 and other infrastructure works helped Calabria to progress somehow, though not to the extent it would have closed the gap to richer Italian regions, but the gap has narrowed.

Let's remember how poor Basilicata and Calabria were after WW2... so progress has been made, and part of that is due to the presence of infrastructure works.

However, infrastructure alone won't spur super-fast growth and modernization. The area still suffers from a severe brain drain, there is an oversize (even for Italian standards) dependence on government jobs, and Mafia issues surely don't help (Gioia Tauro port is an example).
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Old August 23rd, 2014, 12:18 AM   #7348
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Coming from Zernez (CH) - road from the border to Livigno, on the shore of Lago di Livigno.

Photos taken: August 2014

1. Right after entering Italy


2.


3. Lago di Livigno


4.


5. Already there!
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Old August 23rd, 2014, 02:27 AM   #7349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brick84 View Post
Driving where and which conditions?
A3 SA-RC is one of reasons because Calabria is the poorest region in Italy. Economy never grows without efficient infrastructures systems.


P.S.
"All the problems" was not my words.
Calabria, after the Italian unification in the XIX century, was called the "third island" (after Sicily and Sardinia) because it had no roads connecting it with the rest of Italy. Salerno was the furthest place one could reach with a horse-drawn vehicle, where ships to Calabria and Sicily used to sail. Travels between Calabria and mainland Italy and between different places in Calabria were possible only by boat and only few tracks between the coast and inland villages used to exist.
On the other hand, the whole area between the Alps and Salerno\Brindisi, had "good" roads since the Roman times.
However bad roads aren't the only reason of underdevelopment in Calabria and in South Italy in general. The North-South economical gap is been existing for 4 centuries. The Kingdom of the Two Sicily was probably one of the least developed European countries by the middle XIX century, probably comparable only with Tsarist Russia, with its Middle-Age-like socio-economical structure, an economy based virtually only on low-productivity extensive agriculture and a literacy rate of only 10%.
After the Unification, decades of political corruption, growing crime syndacates (mafia), often colluded with the political system and public administration, continued to produce disasters. Mafia is a very strong obstacle to private enterprise.
Campania now has a quite good highway network compared to Calabria, but concerning with poverty, unemployment, crime and decay, it isn't much better than Calabria (in particular Naples is considered bad even compared to the rest of the South).
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old August 23rd, 2014, 04:51 PM   #7350
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There have been always big differences between southern and northern Italy .
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Old August 23rd, 2014, 05:37 PM   #7351
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There has been a time when the South was richer and more civilised. It was a very long time ago, though.

Of course on a global scale it is not particularly bad. I was in Naples last spring and actually would recommend it for anyone who is interested in history and doesn't mind a bit dirty and chaotic. I probably wouldn't live there, but from a visitors point of view it's a more interesting place than Milan or Turin.

Ok, back to Italian roads. By the way those of coastal Campania are among the most spectacular I've seen.
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Old August 23rd, 2014, 06:41 PM   #7352
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No, it's a fake. It's impossible to make a comparison but in the south there were only Naples and Palermo to be mentioned as rich cities. The north had always Milan, Venice, Mantova, Ferrara, Bologna, Genoa as rich cities. The difference is that the north never had cities which were capital cities of a kingdom, but always part of other kingdoms or empires.

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Old August 23rd, 2014, 06:47 PM   #7353
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If you go back to the times of Magna Graecia those Northern cities didn't exit yet. I said probably a very long time ago.
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Old August 23rd, 2014, 07:01 PM   #7354
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As I said: impossible to make a comparison. But as "competition" began...
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Old August 23rd, 2014, 07:06 PM   #7355
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Quote:
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The difference is that the north never had cities wich were capital cities of a kingdom, but always part of other kingdoms or empires.
??
Venice was capital of its republic for hundreds of years. So was Genua, Turin was capital since Savoy transferred the title from Chambery in 1563, Milan was capital for a period, so were Modena, Lucca, Florence, even a little town like Saluzzo was capital of a long lasting state...
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Old August 23rd, 2014, 07:23 PM   #7356
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"Always" was not ment to say "all the time". Of course those cities were autonomous for long or short periods, but never were capitals of kingdoms of their own. I didn't mention Turin, as it became "important" quite later than the other cities. "Mercantile" cities, such those I mentioned, were far more richer than other cities, even capitals, but it was different the way the showed it to the world. Just a little more "understated" as absolute monachs did with their capitals.
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Old August 23rd, 2014, 08:03 PM   #7357
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Autostrada A34






https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...ada_A34_Italia
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Old August 23rd, 2014, 08:25 PM   #7358
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"Always" was not ment to say "all the time". Of course those cities were autonomous for long or short periods, but never were capitals of kingdoms of their own.
As I already said, Venice was capital of its Republic for almost a thousand years. It was not only autonomous, it was a full-blown capital city. So were the other cities I mentioned.
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Old August 23rd, 2014, 08:30 PM   #7359
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Venice turned out to be the most successful of maritime republics founded during the high Middle ages, but there were several competitors particularly early on. Genoa, Pisa, Amalfi, Ragusa…
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Old August 23rd, 2014, 11:05 PM   #7360
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As I already said, Venice was capital of its Republic for almost a thousand years. It was not only autonomous, it was a full-blown capital city. So were the other cities I mentioned.
"Almost", of course. A Republic, not a kingdom. You're not getting the point. It doesn't matter what it was and how long.
It was never a kingdom, and for the short time it was a autonomous it was under french and austrian empire, not a kingdom for itself.
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