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Old August 23rd, 2014, 11:15 PM   #7361
Fab87
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Does anyone have pictures of roadtrips through A26 and A6?

Probably the two least covered motorways on this thread.
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Old August 23rd, 2014, 11:40 PM   #7362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pccvspw999 View Post
"Almost", of course. A Republic, not a kingdom. You're not getting the point. It doesn't matter what it was and how long.
It was never a kingdom, and for the short time it was a autonomous it was under french and austrian empire, not a kingdom for itself.
What kind of argument is that??? It was an independent and at times very powerful country for close to thousand years. Why would it matter whether the form of government was a republic (oligarchy really) or a monarchy? Switzerland or USA have never been kingdoms either...
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Old August 24th, 2014, 12:53 AM   #7363
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It matters that the appearence of those cities has none of those buildings that ment to represent the power and mighty of an absolute monarch. Those cities don't have a Versailles or Caserta's palace. So they may appear "poorer", but they aren't. They hadn't to be magnificent, they needed to show power with walls, fortresses, navy, market places, banks and so on.
The wealth was more distributed, even better, anyway understated compared to capitals cities of a king or emperor. If You sum up the richness distributed in the northern Italy, You come to figures which are by far more than any southern territory, and this ongoing from the 11th century.

Is it clear now what I wanted to say? Read again what I've written before, the question was only between me and g.spinoza.
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Old August 24th, 2014, 01:44 AM   #7364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fab87 View Post
Does anyone have pictures of roadtrips through A26 and A6?

Probably the two least covered motorways on this thread.
I can't find you pictures right now,but here is a video of a A26:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G9-...yer_detailpage
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Old August 24th, 2014, 11:40 AM   #7365
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[I] Italy | road infrastructure • strade e autostrade

It would be nice to watch a wintertime video. Along this road you can switch from snowy -10 or worse to full sunshine and +15 or more within a few miles
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Old August 24th, 2014, 01:42 PM   #7366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pccvspw999 View Post
Those cities don't have a Versailles or Caserta's palace. So they may appear "poorer", but they aren't.
Looking at the heritage left by families like the Medici in towns North of Napoli, 'poor' is definitely not the right word ;-) Likewise, I am not sure whether kingdoms or empires made the big differences. Surely only a kingdom or empire would leave a Versailles, but I would contend that historic presence of a middle class (typically of traders, bankers etc) has been crucial for the way various parts of Italy developed. Like other parts of Europe, by the way, where many a kingdom did not derail into the magnificence of Versailles, because middle classes kept their rulers much tighter.

This leaves the question whether this difference has also caused differences in infrastructure. Arguably a middle class of traders could result in early development of all sorts of roads. But sea republics like Venice and Genova supposedly had much smaller interest in land links to other Italian towns or to their hinterland. The big agricultural role of Sicily, on the other hand, should somehow have caused an early form of farm-to-market (or rather, farm-to-warehouse) roads. And then you have Campania and Calabria/Basilicata in between. Historically part of the same kingdom, the former has much more of a tradition in land infrastructure than the latter two.

This discussion triggered me on one point: what did the SS106 / Statale Ionica look like historically? It seems the easiest part of Calabria to have featured something like a decent land link with areas further North, but the 'terza isola' status suggests that there was no such road?
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Old August 24th, 2014, 02:07 PM   #7367
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[I] Italy | road infrastructure • strade e autostrade

Just to complete the OT break... Magnificence in building AND city planning is a distinctive features of nations whose power and influence peaked in the XVIII and XIX centuries. So you have Paris, S. Petersburg, Vienna and even Washington, all built with an eye to the "enlightment" ideals. And that's one of the reasons why Naples looks like a capital while Rome doesn't. There's little left from the days when Milan was the capital of a decent state (even though the Cathedral serves as a good reminder) and much of it comes from a later age of bankers and traders. And still it was the capital of a vassal state within the Hapaburg empire. It does not look less of a "capital" than, say, Munich, Budapest or Prague.
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Old August 24th, 2014, 05:33 PM   #7368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autoputevi kao hobi View Post
I can't find you pictures right now,but here is a video of a A26:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G9-...yer_detailpage
Such a nice drive.

I'll embed the video here

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Old August 24th, 2014, 09:59 PM   #7369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Looking at the heritage left by families like the Medici in towns North of Napoli, 'poor' is definitely not the right word ;-) Likewise, I am not sure whether kingdoms or empires made the big differences. Surely only a kingdom or empire would leave a Versailles, but I would contend that historic presence of a middle class (typically of traders, bankers etc) has been crucial for the way various parts of Italy developed. Like other parts of Europe, by the way, where many a kingdom did not derail into the magnificence of Versailles, because middle classes kept their rulers much tighter.

This leaves the question whether this difference has also caused differences in infrastructure. Arguably a middle class of traders could result in early development of all sorts of roads. But sea republics like Venice and Genova supposedly had much smaller interest in land links to other Italian towns or to their hinterland. The big agricultural role of Sicily, on the other hand, should somehow have caused an early form of farm-to-market (or rather, farm-to-warehouse) roads. And then you have Campania and Calabria/Basilicata in between. Historically part of the same kingdom, the former has much more of a tradition in land infrastructure than the latter two.

This discussion triggered me on one point: what did the SS106 / Statale Ionica look like historically? It seems the easiest part of Calabria to have featured something like a decent land link with areas further North, but the 'terza isola' status suggests that there was no such road?
Italian roads in 1864

Italian roads in 1923
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 25th, 2014, 01:16 AM   #7370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Looking at the heritage left by families like the Medici in towns North of Napoli, 'poor' is definitely not the right word ;-) Likewise, I am not sure whether kingdoms or empires made the big differences. Surely only a kingdom or empire would leave a Versailles, but I would contend that historic presence of a middle class (typically of traders, bankers etc) has been crucial for the way various parts of Italy developed. Like other parts of Europe, by the way, where many a kingdom did not derail into the magnificence of Versailles, because middle classes kept their rulers much tighter. This leaves the question whether this difference has also caused differences in infrastructure. Arguably a middle class of traders could result in early development of all sorts of roads. But sea republics like Venice and Genova supposedly had much smaller interest in land links to other Italian towns or to their hinterland. The big agricultural role of Sicily, on the other hand, should somehow have caused an early form of farm-to-market (or rather, farm-to-warehouse) roads. And then you have Campania and Calabria/Basilicata in between. Historically part of the same kingdom, the former has much more of a tradition in land infrastructure than the latter two. This discussion triggered me on one point: what did the SS106 / Statale Ionica look like historically? It seems the easiest part of Calabria to have featured something like a decent land link with areas further North, but the 'terza isola' status suggests that there was no such road?
I perfectly agree.
Also the mighty of the church, represented by powerful bishops or archbishops, had his influence and shall not be forgotten at this point.

Last edited by pccvspw999; August 25th, 2014 at 01:32 AM.
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Old August 25th, 2014, 11:49 AM   #7371
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Last Friday I drove A35 "Brebemi" for the first time, just for fun. Coming from Milan no signs whatsoever (not in A51, not in Cassanese road which is still a big construction site). The road itself is awesome but feels disproportionate to actual needs: I overtook 2 trucks during my whole cruise from Milan to Brescia, three lanes seem to much given the fact that is serves no big towns in between (maybe only Treviglio).

Bad bad thing though: around Travagliato the road goes from 3 to 1 lane per direction and stays like this all the wat to Brescia. The 1+1 "raccordo is wide and well built but it is limited to 70 km/h. I foresee many people ignoring this limit, overtaking recklessly and many, many accidents.
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Old August 25th, 2014, 03:00 PM   #7372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino-
This discussion triggered me on one point: what did the SS106 / Statale Ionica look like historically? It seems the easiest part of Calabria to have featured something like a decent land link with areas further North, but the 'terza isola' status suggests that there was no such road?
It simply didn't exist: that coast was completely marshy and uninhabited
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Old August 25th, 2014, 03:04 PM   #7373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf
Italian roads in 1923
This map is referred to the roads classified as "National roads" in 1923. You can find the list here.
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Old August 25th, 2014, 04:17 PM   #7374
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SS 640 Agrigento-Caltanissetta

The 'Caltanissetta tunnel' goes on. 414 mt have been already digged.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...#post116793174
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Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Prima parte
Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Seconda parte

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Old August 25th, 2014, 04:27 PM   #7375
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What web site can be used to calculate the amount of toll needed for travels in Italy?
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Old August 25th, 2014, 04:29 PM   #7376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
What web site can be used to calculate the amount of toll needed for travels in Italy?
http://www.autostrade.it/autostrade-...n&dscDa=&dscA=

EDIT:
This is the english version:
http://www.autostrade.it/autostrade_...n&dscDa=&dscA=
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Old August 26th, 2014, 09:51 AM   #7377
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Apparently 5th lane enlargement works on A8, between A50 and A9, have finally started.

http://www.legnanonews.com/news/2/40526/ (Italian)
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Old August 26th, 2014, 11:39 AM   #7378
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Is there an alternative from Rome towards Brennero, other then A1-Firenze-Bologna-Verona-A22, that won't be to much slower or tiring?
I see some alternatives, but due to the fact that I will have to drive all the way to Ingolstadt the same day, I wouldn't want to make it much worse. It would be the first Saturday from October.

---

What about alternative from Firenze to Rome? It would be the last Monday from September.
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Old August 26th, 2014, 11:43 AM   #7379
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Any other alternative would be non-motorway, which would make your journey a lot longer. You can add hundreds of kilometres by going via Tauern or Gotthard, but I am sure you don't want that. Damn those mountains
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Old August 26th, 2014, 11:47 AM   #7380
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I saw on Streetview that there some roads that are 2x2 in direction Siena, Pisa or Perugia...
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