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Old October 28th, 2014, 02:44 AM   #7601
Karaya
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Very interesting project. Although Apennines aren't that high, you still need insane tunnels. I guess it's easier to build motorways in the U shaped glacier alpine valleys.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 09:53 AM   #7602
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post

From La Quercia to Aglio there will be a completely new motorway (3x2) parallel to the old one (2x2), that will remain open to local traffic (Rioveggio, Pian del Voglio, Roncobilaccio).
New motorway is 2x2, not 3x2.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 10:59 AM   #7603
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
New motorway is 2x2, not 3x2.
The entire section La Quercia - Aglio?
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Old October 28th, 2014, 11:01 AM   #7604
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Originally Posted by Karaya View Post
Very interesting project. Although Apennines aren't that high, you still need insane tunnels. I guess it's easier to build motorways in the U shaped glacier alpine valleys.
The longest tunnel is almost 9km.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 11:19 AM   #7605
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
The entire section La Quercia - Aglio?
Yes:
Quote:
Nel tratto La Quercia-Aglio la variante sarà composta di 2 corsie più quella di emergenza per senso di marcia
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variante_di_Valico

Quote:
Sul tratto di circa 18 km tra La Quercia e Badia, l’intervento consiste nella costruzione di una nuova autostrada con 2 corsie più emergenza[...]
nel tratto di 16 km compreso tra Badia e Aglio, l’opera principale è la cosiddetta galleria di base, considerata l’opera simbolo della Variante di Valico. Si tratta di due tunnel affiancati lunghi circa 9 km utilizzati per il traffico diretto sia verso nord che verso sud, caratterizzati entrambi da 2 corsie di marcia più corsia di emergenza
http://www.autostrade.it/variante-di...INO/index.html

Basically the total capacity between La Quercia and Aglio will be 4+4, while between Aglio and Barberino it will be 4+3.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 12:30 PM   #7606
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Basically the total capacity between La Quercia and Aglio will be 4+4,
Only in theory. Practically, almost everybody will use the new motorway, since is flatter and straighter. So there will be a very congested motorway and another one very empty (like A4-A35). (Hoping that in this case tolls will remain the same.)
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 12:50 PM   #7607
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Only in theory. Practically, almost everybody will use the new motorway, since is flatter and straighter. So there will be a very congested motorway and another one very empty (like A4-A35). (Hoping that in this case tolls will remain the same.)
This is something that really puzzles me. I think they thought of some way to distribute traffic, but personally I can't really figure out how they're going to do that.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 01:59 PM   #7608
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They don't need to.

Just put some electronic panels clearly indicating intensity of traffic, in some color pattern scheme, and you'll always find car drivers willing to take the old route to avoid congestion.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 02:35 PM   #7609
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I don't think it's so simple.
Besides, the old track will be underused in any case. It seems a little costly mantaining a full motorway only to be used as safety valve. I wonder whether it wasn't better tearing it completely down and building the new one as 3+3 since the beginning.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 03:16 PM   #7610
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I don't think it's so simple.
Besides, the old track will be underused in any case. It seems a little costly mantaining a full motorway only to be used as safety valve. I wonder whether it wasn't better tearing it completely down and building the new one as 3+3 since the beginning.
If they put some information on time to reach La Quercia (northbound traffic) or Aglio (southbound traffic) on some gigantic panels, I think many smart drivers will take the fastest one.

They could ban trucks from the older route.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 03:47 PM   #7611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I don't think it's so simple.
Besides, the old track will be underused in any case. It seems a little costly mantaining a full motorway only to be used as safety valve. I wonder whether it wasn't better tearing it completely down and building the new one as 3+3 since the beginning.
They could have built the new route as 3+3 even keeping the old route open. It would be a pity to tear down the old motorway. Some viaducts are very interesting from an engineering point of view. The A1, that opened in 1960, is probably the first cross-mountain motorway ever built in the world. Nothing so impressive had ever been built before.
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
If they put some information on time to reach La Quercia (northbound traffic) or Aglio (southbound traffic) on some gigantic panels, I think many smart drivers will take the fastest one.

They could ban trucks from the older route.
They should rather ban hazmat trucks from the new one, since it has more tunnels.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 04:42 PM   #7612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
The longest tunnel is almost 9km.
8.7km
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Old October 28th, 2014, 05:07 PM   #7613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
They should rather ban hazmat trucks from the new one, since it has more tunnels.
No way. It has less tunnels, but it's more dangerous because of steepness and curves. At the end the lower risk is to let them run on the new motorway.

Concerning the old track, it has to be considered that it's almost worn-out, it's expensive to maintain, and at the end no loger fit for heavy loads. It will be used only as "safty valve" against congestion, the main traffic will be on the new track. Compulsive detours on the old section may be activated in case of high traffic and only for cars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karaya View Post
Very interesting project. Although Apennines aren't that high, you still need insane tunnels. I guess it's easier to build motorways in the U shaped glacier alpine valleys.
It's not a case that the second longest railway tunnel in the world (until Seikan in Japan was opened), longer then Gotthard and just a little bit shorter than Simplon, was among Bologna and Florence through the Appenines. Appenines are not much high, but very steep and rough (V shaped valleys ;-)). If some tunnels could have been avoided but made for environment issues, the most tunnels are necessary.
On the other hand: to make less tunnels You have to make it as the old, existing motorway.

Last edited by pccvspw999; October 28th, 2014 at 05:15 PM.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 05:08 PM   #7614
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That makes you wonder if it wasn't a better idea to build the Valico Bypass with 2x3 lanes and remove the old motorway if will be so expensive to maintain and may produce undesired traffic flows... Especially in this day and age when many drivers ignore the signs and follow the GPS.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 05:17 PM   #7615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
They could have built the new route as 3+3 even keeping the old route open. It would be a pity to tear down the old motorway. Some viaducts are very interesting from an engineering point of view. The A1, that opened in 1960, is probably the first cross-mountain motorway ever built in the world. Nothing so impressive had ever been built before.
I don't think that a motorway so expensive to mantain should be kept open just because "it's interesting", given the very low AADT that it's going to have once the bypass is open.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 05:22 PM   #7616
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So maybe in 20-25 years we'll see a project to widen the central sector of the new alignment to 2x3 :p
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Old October 28th, 2014, 05:42 PM   #7617
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I agree, it should have been build for 3 lanes each direction.
The old motorway, once liberated from heavy loads, is quite good for light traffic.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 06:00 PM   #7618
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
A really stunning aerial video of A1 Variante di Valico, almost completed

http://streampro.autostrade.it/media.../2702/file.mp4
Truly impressive. They forgot to mention a couple of other data that would have been very interesting to see: when did they start to work and how much money was spent untill now (if anyone has a precise idea. ).
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Old October 28th, 2014, 06:25 PM   #7619
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So maybe in 20-25 years we'll see a project to widen the central sector of the new alignment to 2x3 :p
That will require other 30 years of works and several billion €. A3 docet.

BTW, due to financial issue, the current deadline for the 3rd lane on A4 San Donà di Piave - Villesse is: 2031.

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I don't think that a motorway so expensive to mantain should be kept open just because "it's interesting", given the very low AADT that it's going to have once the bypass is open.
I didn't know that the current A1 has structural issues requiring more than the ordinary maintenance.

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Originally Posted by Perennial Quest View Post
Truly impressive. They forgot to mention a couple of other data that would have been very interesting to see: when did they start to work and how much money was spent untill now (if anyone has a precise idea. ).
Works started in 2004. Opening was initially scheduled for 2013, but it was delayed due to geological issues.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 06:28 PM   #7620
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Originally Posted by Perennial Quest View Post
Truly impressive. They forgot to mention a couple of other data that would have been very interesting to see: when did they start to work and how much money was spent untill now (if anyone has a precise idea. ).
That's easy. Works started in 2004 and costed ~4 billion €.
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