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Old October 28th, 2014, 06:32 PM   #7621
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The works are part of a concession. So I there is a financial incentive for works to be completed in a more efficient manner. However, there had been some bizarre twists on the project, like an administrative court order that effectively stopped works in a tunnel, but just till the region (Toscana-Emilia Romaga) border.

There had also been some geological issues, at one point in 2008 the most extreme scenarios envisioned a massive mountain slide due to shifting terrain...
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Old October 28th, 2014, 08:22 PM   #7622
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The new alignment will have at least 3 lanes per direction of standard width (3.75m), although one will be used as a hard shoulder. I foresee a possible future use of it as "dynamic" 3rd lane.


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Old October 28th, 2014, 08:32 PM   #7623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
BTW, due to financial issue, the current deadline for the 3rd lane on A4 San Donà di Piave - Villesse is: 2031.
Lol, awesome.


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Old October 28th, 2014, 08:34 PM   #7624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
So maybe in 20-25 years we'll see a project to widen the central sector of the new alignment to 2x3 :p
Actually emergency lane ( is a "dynamic" lane) on the new alignment will be 3,75 meters wide, including the tunnels and bridges, so its already predisposed for 2x3







and the final section will be a hybrid from Aglio to Barberino
as its 3 lanes heading south and 2+2 heading north. You can see it from 2:58 till 3:40 in the video.



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Old October 28th, 2014, 09:07 PM   #7625
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The old route can be used in summer days when there is a big number of vehicles.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 09:45 PM   #7626
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Quote:
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The new alignment will have at least 3 lanes per direction of standard width (3.75m), although one will be used as a hard shoulder. I foresee a possible future use of it as "dynamic" 3rd lane.


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Dynamic 3rd lane is a very bad idea for safety, since it doesn't keep a free path to emergency vehicles in case of accident.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 09:57 PM   #7627
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Dynamic 3rd lane is a very bad idea for safety, since it doesn't keep a free path to emergency vehicles in case of accident.
I used to think the same, but keep in mind that virtually no motorway in Italy have continuous emergency lane: in most cases they're missing on bridges and tunnels. Emergency vehicles risk getting stuck all the time. Rettungsgasse is a much better idea: unfortunately in Italy is not viable - you need disciplined drivers to form a Rettungsgasse.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 10:19 PM   #7628
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Maybe it would help explaining it to the drivers first, or not? If nobody tell's that this shall be the behavior to be kept, nobody will accomplish.

"Rettungsgasse" ( or "fire lane"), was not innate in german drivers, for example, it was educated.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 10:45 PM   #7629
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"Rettungsgasse" ( or "fire lane"), was not innate in german drivers, for example, it was educated.
Of course, but German drivers follow the rules. That's the big difference.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 11:39 PM   #7630
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What's the concept of Rettunggasse? If you mean traffic is stuck and everybody moves to the right or left upon hearing sirens it's commonplace here. Indeed I wished the new Road Code imposed different kind of sirens so to be heard in cushy cars even when using a bloototh to make call like the "rumbler"
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Old October 29th, 2014, 12:51 AM   #7631
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Rettungsgasse means making a free lane for emergency vehicles in case traffic is stopped (vehicles from right lane go right on the shoulder, the rest go to the left). The trick is not to do this when the emergency vehicle comes, but just after traffic stops, so the emergency vehicle can drive through without having to wait.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 02:34 AM   #7632
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yes, you can hardly move your vehicle after the traffic has stopped.

Last edited by hofburg; October 29th, 2014 at 02:40 AM.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 10:05 AM   #7633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Of course, but German drivers follow the rules. That's the big difference.
Are You sure? In my opinion italians are able to follow the rules also, just need to have them explained and not only "dropped from above" or just to make some money for the state.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 10:17 AM   #7634
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Quote:
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yes, you can hardly move your vehicle after the traffic has stopped.
The main issue is to leave a little bit of space just to have the possibility to put your car a little bit more to right or left. Lanes are 3,50-3.75m wide, cars up to 2m: there is enough space to create a "emergency lane" also with a small movement.
That's why the system has been adopted: a defective car on the emergency lane cannot be easily moved and will oblige the rescue teams to diverge to traffic lane blocked by the standing cars: it's a problem! On the other hand stopped cars on traffic lane are all able to move, so the rescue vehicles can move not fast but steadidly. It's more effective at the end.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 10:31 AM   #7635
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Quote:
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Are You sure?
Yes, I am. I lived both in Italy and Germany, and the difference is abysmal.

Explaining the rules is not enough. The only way is the enforcing, and punishment for those who break the rules. In Italy there's no enforcement at all.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 10:48 AM   #7636
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Explaining the rules is not enough. The only way is the enforcing, and punishment for those who break the rules. In Italy there's no enforcement at all.
C'mon, it is not like that!

Speed enforcement worked very efficiently to reduce crazy driving on most highways and many roads. ZTL enforcement also fines violators with incredible efficiency.

I have a theory, though, that says the original sin of Italian traffic law abiding culture (or lack thereof) is parking. Since parking management on most cities vary from spotty to wild, with rules often ignored or bend with, a situation caused by the sheer lack of parking in many places; drivers transcend their attitudes toward parking ("I gotta find a way, damn that yellow marking") to other aspects of driving as well.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 11:13 AM   #7637
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Parking is one of the few things that's actually enforced, along with speeding as you correctly said. It's also correct that parking is enforced differently in different cities - the only two times I parked illegally, once in Brescia and once in Bologna, I got tickets. In Turin parking is much more wild and tolerated.

That said, no other violation is sanctioned. You can talk at the cell phone, overtake with solid middle line, forget the existence of blinkers and do whatever you like... you will never get a ticket.

Last edited by g.spinoza; October 29th, 2014 at 11:40 AM.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 11:29 AM   #7638
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What I noticed while driving in Italy:
- outside of localities in roadworks nobody obeys the speed limits (usually they just drive ahead as there where was nothing)
- on multiple lane roads some drivers don't seem to be able to decide which lane to use, so they just drive between them
- crazy scooteristi in cities - Italians don't seem to bothered though, I guess it just takes some time to get used to
- blinking is optional to many drivers (happens here too though)
- cars parked in any place that has a spot where car fits (nothing new to me, since I come from Romania). Funny thing was, if cars left decent space between them while parking along the road, a scooter would claim that place
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Old October 29th, 2014, 11:45 AM   #7639
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The main unwritten rule is, exspecially in Rome, "la precedenza è di chi sa'a pija", which literally translates in "the way (at roundabouts, crossings, etc etc) is of those who take it".

Or, better, "the strongest survives".
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Old October 29th, 2014, 11:54 AM   #7640
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What I don't understand though, is the relatively low fatality rate in Italy. In 2013 it was 58 traffic fatalities per 1 million people, which is right at the EU average. With the driving style and scooter chaos in cities you'd think Italy would be one of the worst. Greece, for example, had 81 fatalities per 1 million (112 as recently as 2010).
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