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Old October 29th, 2014, 11:57 AM   #7641
cinxxx
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I think because Italians just manage perfectly in that chaos.
Until a tourist arrives and ruins it all

When we were in Rome last month I approached the scooter topic with the landlord of the apartment we stayed in.
He told us, if he drives by car to work, he needs 45min, by scooter only 15min...
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Old October 29th, 2014, 12:06 PM   #7642
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I think it's because Italians don't rely on that other drivers obey the rules.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 12:08 PM   #7643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What I don't understand though, is the relatively low fatality rate in Italy. In 2013 it was 58 traffic fatalities per 1 million people, which is right at the EU average. With the driving style and scooter chaos in cities you'd think Italy would be one of the worst. Greece, for example, had 81 fatalities per 1 million (112 as recently as 2010).
This is something that puzzles me, too.

The only positive thing I noticed, by comparing Italian and German drivers, is that we are faster in responding to unexpected events. Maybe this is what saves lives
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Old October 29th, 2014, 01:20 PM   #7644
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Yep. The average driver is very aware and reacts well.

Living in a small city my rule is "people will respect the rules. Well. 80% of them"
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Old October 29th, 2014, 02:09 PM   #7645
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In Milano parking is out of control. Newspapers often publish images of cars parking over grass. Double parking is also a huge issue, especially on the wider streets of areas built after the 1840s. It is like many drivers can't resist double parking and can't be bothered walking, as long as there is space left for one car to overtake. You see that often near small shops.

This place is close to my former residence in Milano. Notice the double parking. Common situation all over the city. If you have parking shortages and a sidewalk wide enough, cars will often park there. Most of Milano's sidewalk are paved with asphalt, so to a less trained eye it might even look it is just another traffic lane

Residential areas are also affected like here adn here

University campus, so people would be more sensible to the sidewalks, right? No, wrong.

----------

It's not only a Northern Italy problem though. Take a 360 turn with the Google Street View camera at this intersection in Catania, or this one. Here parking chaos is visible from above, no need for street view.

My overall point is: the fact people in Italy will go through great lengths to find parking in such manner reduces the possibilities of more sane solutions, like more underground parking garages that serve nearby blocks. They exist, but in numbers not really compatible with the auto ownership rates of many Italian cities and towns.

This intersection I easly found in Genova (there are many of them, just an example) sums it up:

- several scooters illegally parked on the corner
- the Ford Ka just ignores the angled park marking, which lacks demarcation of specific places of each car by the way
- somebody just couldn't be bothered and parked the scooter in front of the blue van
- the grey van partially blocked the pedestrian cross
- ahead, a Peugeout is blocking the street double parked
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Old October 29th, 2014, 03:04 PM   #7646
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Those sights are very common in other countries too, I can speak for myself.
Here left and right lanes are used for parking, here stopping is not allowed, people not only stop, they park (just follow the whole street, on both sides), double parking, sidewalk, same street, sidewalk again
etc

If I'm not mistaken, the law in Romania states that if you leave 1m space for pedestrians, you can park on the sidewalk... anyway in may of the cases, you don't have half of that left and must either continue on the street or be thin enough to fit between a car and a building...
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Old October 29th, 2014, 03:17 PM   #7647
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Italian law

Quote:
TITOLO V - NORME DI COMPORTAMENTO

Art. 158. Divieto di fermata e di sosta dei veicoli.

1. La fermata e la sosta sono vietate:

[...]

h) sui marciapiedi, salvo diversa segnalazione.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 05:29 PM   #7648
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Quote:
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It's not only a Northern Italy problem though.
The South is much worse than the North, for this purpose, especially around Naples.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Italian law
It means that parking on sidewalks is illegal unless there are white or blue parking lines on them.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 08:07 PM   #7649
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Has SS 212 from Pesco Sannita to Innesto opened to traffic? It was planned to open in October earlier.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 08:44 PM   #7650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What I don't understand though, is the relatively low fatality rate in Italy.
From my experience after driving almost whole Italy I would guess that this is because Italians are actually pretty good drivers (no, I'm not kidding) comparing to most of Europe - excluding Sunday drivers which are worse than probably anywhere in Europe.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 08:59 PM   #7651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Has SS 212 from Pesco Sannita to Innesto opened to traffic? It was planned to open in October earlier.
It will open next 13 November, at 11:30.

http://www.gazzettabenevento.it/Sito...o.php?Id=74398
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Old October 29th, 2014, 11:31 PM   #7652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What I don't understand though, is the relatively low fatality rate in Italy. In 2013 it was 58 traffic fatalities per 1 million people, which is right at the EU average. With the driving style and scooter chaos in cities you'd think Italy would be one of the worst. Greece, for example, had 81 fatalities per 1 million (112 as recently as 2010).
Don't put Italy together with Greece. They don't wear helmets on scooters, for instance.

Some 10-12 years ago Italy started to enforce some basic safety measures (seat-belts, helmets) and Greece didn't quite do the same. Greece on the other hand is one of the strictest places when it comes to driving under the influence.

As for the reasons behind that low fatality rate in Italy, I agree with what has been said. Watching out and checking what the others are doing is part of italian common sense. For instance, pedestrians don't cross the streets without looking. We have rules, but they are somehow flexible and we tend to interpret them in the most convenient way for every situation. And quite often people help each other instead of sticking to the rules.

Plus, speeding is severely punished. And we have speed checks quite everywhere.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 11:55 PM   #7653
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Today, speaking about road capacity, at university, the teacher said that in the Capacity formula there is a special parameter, Fa, that changes wether people can or cannot drive in that place.

For example, in urban roads for Italian cities is 0,6. In north EU reaches 0,9.
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Old October 30th, 2014, 12:03 AM   #7654
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Those are likely intensity/capacity values. An I/C of 0.9 means a highly saturated road with a lot of congestion. Under 0.7 it is usually free-flow.
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Old October 30th, 2014, 12:15 AM   #7655
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Quote:
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Those are likely intensity/capacity values. An I/C of 0.9 means a highly saturated road with a lot of congestion. Under 0.7 it is usually free-flow.
No, I was speaking about the real capacity, which depends on the theorical capacity [Ct], the driving ability and law respect (that Fa i was telling before), the percentage of heavy traffic [Tc], number of lanes [n] and external environment [Ws] (for example, driving with the snow on the sides of the road makes many people go slower).

C = nCtFaWsTc.

Where Fa, Ws and Tc are all numbers between 0 and 1.
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Old October 30th, 2014, 03:01 PM   #7656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fab87 View Post
Don't put Italy together with Greece. They don't wear helmets on scooters, for instance.

Some 10-12 years ago Italy started to enforce some basic safety measures (seat-belts, helmets) and Greece didn't quite do the same. Greece on the other hand is one of the strictest places when it comes to driving under the influence.

As for the reasons behind that low fatality rate in Italy, I agree with what has been said. Watching out and checking what the others are doing is part of italian common sense. For instance, pedestrians don't cross the streets without looking. We have rules, but they are somehow flexible and we tend to interpret them in the most convenient way for every situation. And quite often people help each other instead of sticking to the rules.

Plus, speeding is severely punished. And we have speed checks quite everywhere.

I still remember a short trip to Stockholm a few years back. My wife had to attend a conference on the Saturday so I went exploring the city on my own. A few weeks after a minor accident I overwalked and my left knee was hurting. I begun crossing a broad avenue and a guy at the far end stopped at the pedestrian crossing. I waved him to go "it'll take bloody ages before I limp there! Feel free to go"

No way. He waited for me
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Old October 30th, 2014, 04:12 PM   #7657
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Don't put Italy together with Greece. They don't wear helmets on scooters, for instance.
In many places in the south, especially Naples, helmet usage is still scarce.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 30th, 2014, 04:15 PM   #7658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fab87 View Post
Don't put Italy together with Greece. They don't wear helmets on scooters, for instance.

Some 10-12 years ago Italy started to enforce some basic safety measures (seat-belts, helmets) and Greece didn't quite do the same. Greece on the other hand is one of the strictest places when it comes to driving under the influence.

As for the reasons behind that low fatality rate in Italy, I agree with what has been said. Watching out and checking what the others are doing is part of italian common sense. For instance, pedestrians don't cross the streets without looking. We have rules, but they are somehow flexible and we tend to interpret them in the most convenient way for every situation. And quite often people help each other instead of sticking to the rules.

Plus, speeding is severely punished. And we have speed checks quite everywhere.
But reckless overtaking (in two-lane roads with little visibility) is very common in Italy. And stuff such as dawdling between two lanes of a motorway without looking at your mirrors. Or driving 50 km/h on the hard shoulder with the cell phone in hand.

I'm also shocked by the Italian fatality rates. Maybe you have another criteria to count road victims, such as not including the dead 24 hours after the accident, or not including accidents on the way to work.
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Old October 30th, 2014, 04:18 PM   #7659
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good roads = low fatality
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Old October 30th, 2014, 05:05 PM   #7660
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I'm also shocked by the Italian fatality rates. Maybe you have another criteria to count road victims, such as not including the dead 24 hours after the accident, or not including accidents on the way to work.
I think that criteria are standard, at least in Europe. BTW, in Italy fatalities are counted within 30 days from the accident.
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