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Old October 31st, 2014, 08:14 PM   #7681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
New traffic tube, it will carry 1 traffic lane only.

Several NGOs and some local governments opposed it on the bandwagon of "traffic will kill our valley", but people seem to forget the tunnel carries less than 4000 vehicles/day on average.
Why one traffic lane ?
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Old October 31st, 2014, 08:19 PM   #7682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
New traffic tube, it will carry 1 traffic lane only.

Several NGOs and some local governments opposed it on the bandwagon of "traffic will kill our valley", but people seem to forget the tunnel carries less than 4000 vehicles/day on average.
1 lane only?

Then Gran Sasso mantains its record of longest double-lane double-bore tunnel.

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Old October 31st, 2014, 08:23 PM   #7683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autoputevi kao hobi View Post
Why one traffic lane ?
First, the plan was to dig a safety tube only. Then, the idea emerged to use the safety tube as a traffic lane, to separate the flows.

Building 2 lanes and doubling traffic capacity would be highly problematic, it would need more environmental studies and what not, due to bureaucracy.

The Frejus tunnel is rarely congested anyway (well, the tunnel itself is never congested since they use the toll plazas to control the flow).
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Old October 31st, 2014, 08:27 PM   #7684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fab87 View Post
Don't put Italy together with Greece. They don't wear helmets on scooters, for instance.

Some 10-12 years ago Italy started to enforce some basic safety measures (seat-belts, helmets) and Greece didn't quite do the same. Greece on the other hand is one of the strictest places when it comes to driving under the influence.

As for the reasons behind that low fatality rate in Italy, I agree with what has been said. Watching out and checking what the others are doing is part of italian common sense. For instance, pedestrians don't cross the streets without looking. We have rules, but they are somehow flexible and we tend to interpret them in the most convenient way for every situation. And quite often people help each other instead of sticking to the rules.

Plus, speeding is severely punished. And we have speed checks quite everywhere.
Enforcing control measures and sanctions helped to cut the fatalities of 50% in last 10 years
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Old October 31st, 2014, 08:38 PM   #7685
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TUTOR was very helpful for highway traffic safety. It just takes out the incentive for speeding altogether (and overall speed limits in Italy are not arbitrarily slow, most of the time), contrary to fixed-point speed traps which can be actually dangerous as people slam the brakes nearby and then accelerate after passed through.
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Old October 31st, 2014, 08:41 PM   #7686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
It should be 8 m wide, while the current one is 9 m. Smaller but not that much.
This is the section



http://www.sitaftunnelfrejus.it/prog...istiche-opera/
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Old October 31st, 2014, 08:55 PM   #7687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Building 2 lanes and doubling traffic capacity would be highly problematic, it would need more environmental studies and what not, due to bureaucracy.
What would the actual environmental impact be? The entire project is underground.

The 'induced demand' argument doesn't fly because 1) the current tunnel is not congested and 2) the high tolls caps demand.

Though I agree the low traffic volumes don't require four lanes anyway. I'm happy with the current solution. It will make the tunnel much safer.

There is another single-tube tunnel on A43 in France, west of Modane. But it is very wide, basically three lanes wide, where the center lane is striped off and acts like a buffer. It felt much safer than opposing traffic like the Gotthard Tunnel.
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Old October 31st, 2014, 09:03 PM   #7688
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That's the same thing they're going to do with Col di Tenda tunnel, also Italy/France. They're digging another tube to separate fluxes, 1 lane per tube.
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Old October 31st, 2014, 09:17 PM   #7689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What would the actual environmental impact be? The entire project is underground.

The 'induced demand' argument doesn't fly because 1) the current tunnel is not congested and 2) the high tolls caps demand.

Though I agree the low traffic volumes don't require four lanes anyway. I'm happy with the current solution. It will make the tunnel much safer.
I'm not entirely sure on the qirks of French environmental law, but it has something to do with providing capacity that are then just not enabled vs. not providing increased capacity.

This being said... the section of a tunnel with r = 5m is 56% larger than a tunnel with r = 4m...

Another benefit they are touting is to make ventilation much simpler and easier to manage in case of fire.
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Old October 31st, 2014, 11:56 PM   #7690
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I think that one traffic lane in a tunnel is not so safe.
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Old November 1st, 2014, 01:41 AM   #7691
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Quote:
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A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria


New 1.5 km stretch opened traffic in the second 'Macrolotto' near Lagonegro (PZ)

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Old November 1st, 2014, 10:56 AM   #7692
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Following the Mont Blanc fire it has been decided to improve safety in many European tunnels, mainly boring safety tubes where they did not exist.

For the Fréjus tunnel a ~4 m diametre tube was initially planned, but it was then decided (I think under pressure from firefighters) to increase the diametre so as to allow two fire trucks to cross each other at very low speed. The decision to open the tube to traffic was taken soon after, so the result is a tube which is big compared to normal safety tunnels but small compared to normal traffic tunnels.

Ecologist groups have nothing to do here. Usually they either oppose road projects and approve rail projects, or oppose both. On the Italian side of the Fréjus instead they oppose a rail project but say nothing about twinning the road tunnel.

I don't know how will be operated in the future the tunnel, but there aren't many options: either 1+1 or 2+1 (with two lanes towards Italy in the existing tube). I'm not aware of plans to renovate the old tube, but I would not be surprised if it will be closed for refurbishment with alternate traffic in the other.

As other said, because of the very high tolls it is unlikely the new tube will attract more traffic, however as tolls of the Mont Blanc tunnel are similar, it is possible that some trucks will switch to the Fréjus instead (same tolls, similar distance on long trips, but likely less strict safety rules).

The second Tenda tunnel has a different history: it was opened in 1882 and at 3182 m was likely the longest road tunnel of its time, a time when motorized road vehicles practically did not exist. It can either handle two-way traffic or cars, or alternate traffic of lower trucks (under 3.8 m or so). After the second single lane (+ shoulder) tube will be opened the first one will be eidened to allow higher vehicles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What would the actual environmental impact be? The entire project is underground.
Environmental impact of tunnels include subsidence of surface areas (usually in case of urban bored tunnels, like subways), modification of underground water flows with drying up of springs, production of big quantities of bored material that has to be put somewhere. The first two problems appeared during the construction of the high speed rail line and the Variante di Valico between Bologna and Florence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
There is another single-tube tunnel on A43 in France, west of Modane. But it is very wide, basically three lanes wide, where the center lane is striped off and acts like a buffer. It felt much safer than opposing traffic like the Gotthard Tunnel.
The Orelle tunnel was initially operated as 2+1 as many steeper roads, however for safety reasons (or safety paranoia?) it was converted to 1+1 with an empty lane in the middle.

The Somport tunnel was designed as a two way traffic tunnel, and that's why it has a wide painted separation line.

The Gotthard tunnel instead has been planned as a double bore tunnel with just one tube built initially, that's one of the reasons it is narrower, has emergency stop bays more often southbound (every 750 m, instead of 1500 m northbound), and initially had lightings only on one side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autoputevi kao hobi View Post
I think that one traffic lane in a tunnel is not so safe.
Why should it be less safe? Theoretically, it should be slightly safer, as side crashes are impossible.
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Old November 1st, 2014, 01:54 PM   #7693
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People from Susa valley (the one crossed by A32 and Frejus tunnel) are afraid of asbestos pollution, since the mountains around Bardonecchia and Susa are full of it.
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Old November 1st, 2014, 05:49 PM   #7694
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I've read that there is an "Alps Convention", signed by Italy and France, that forbids to increase the capacity of roads that cross the Alpine watershed (because, according to them, if the Frejus tunnel will get 4 lanes, traffic will suddenly increase to unsustainable numbers, since people like paying 40€ for nothing ).
Hopefully, this agreement will be scrapped one day and the Frejus tunnel will be easily upgraded to 4 lanes (8 meters is just enough to accomodate two standard 3.75m lanes).

I think we should take care of our planet for our future, but those pseudo-environmentalists always puzzle me. The only serious concern there is absestos pollution, that will equally happen whether the tunnel will have 1 or 2 lanes. It's quite ironical that many people who fear the increase of traffic in Susa valley are also anti-HSR. Isn't the train an effective method to pull goods' traffic away from roads?
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Old November 1st, 2014, 05:51 PM   #7695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Isn't the train an effective method to pull goods' traffic away from roads?
In the mind of politicians; yes, in reality, not so much.
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Old November 1st, 2014, 06:35 PM   #7696
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The Alpine Convention (which I think is not binding, as it is not an Italian, French or European law): http://www.alpconv.org/en/convention...protocolEN.pdf

A 2+2 Fréjus tunnel, if it existed, would likely not attract new traffic, but maybe existing traffic passing now through the Mont Blanc.

The Fréjus tunnel cannot "be easily upgraded to 4 lanes", because the second tube is too small. The drawing in post 7686 shows that the carriageway is 5.73 m wide, that means a 3.75 m lane and a 2 m shoulder, enough to allow a very slow moving truck to overtake/cross a stopped truck, but not to allow two lanes, even in the same direction. In the following PDFs the dimensions of the two tubes can be clearly seen:

http://www.razel-bec.com/documents/m...tte_frejus.pdf

http://www.aftes.asso.fr/doc_gd_publ...a168Frejus.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Isn't the train an effective method to pull goods' traffic away from roads?
Partially yes, if one knows how to use them (for example, not closing freight yards receiving heavy steel loads and increasing electricity costs like in Italy).
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Old November 1st, 2014, 08:09 PM   #7697
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
In the mind of politicians; yes, in reality, not so much.
why not?
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Old November 1st, 2014, 08:35 PM   #7698
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why not?
Trains and trucks cater only to partially overlapping markets. They are not perfect substitutes like Volvo truck or SAAB truck.
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Old November 1st, 2014, 08:54 PM   #7699
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According to surveys on the Gotthard motorway, many trucks are travelling for hundreds of km.

Instead of towing these trailers one by one, frequent long-distance shuttles could replace them.

Below is a Modalohr train, that allow the transport of any kind of semitrailer, even those not designed to be loaded by cranes.

They run on the Perpignan-Luxembourg route, other routes are planned in France, and other possible routes might be Milan-Rhein Ruhr, Verona-Netherlands, and such.

There is a route also between Turin and Chambery, around 175 km, but it is heavily subsidized and short. It also carries some tractors and their drivers.

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Old November 1st, 2014, 09:49 PM   #7700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The Alpine Convention (which I think is not binding, as it is not an Italian, French or European law): http://www.alpconv.org/en/convention...protocolEN.pdf

A 2+2 Fréjus tunnel, if it existed, would likely not attract new traffic, but maybe existing traffic passing now through the Mont Blanc.

The Fréjus tunnel cannot "be easily upgraded to 4 lanes", because the second tube is too small. The drawing in post 7686 shows that the carriageway is 5.73 m wide, that means a 3.75 m lane and a 2 m shoulder, enough to allow a very slow moving truck to overtake/cross a stopped truck, but not to allow two lanes, even in the same direction. In the following PDFs the dimensions of the two tubes can be clearly seen:

http://www.razel-bec.com/documents/m...tte_frejus.pdf

http://www.aftes.asso.fr/doc_gd_publ...a168Frejus.pdf



Partially yes, if one knows how to use them (for example, not closing freight yards receiving heavy steel loads and increasing electricity costs like in Italy).
Sorry, I didn't look at the chart and I though that 8m was the carriaggeway's width.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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