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Old June 5th, 2015, 12:06 PM   #8341
g.spinoza
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Originally Posted by Insulateshipper View Post
Finally an honnest guy... It's not only Italy . Also in switzerland we have this problem... Other discussion, I hurt that in spain a lot of motorway are in bankrupt, nobody use those motorway in middle of nothing. Italy is more populate than Spain, so maybe it will never hapend. But do you think it could be hapen with the BRBEMI? Journalist complains that they are not enough cars, is it still the case with now the TEEM open?
That is not a matter of population density, it's just that it is way too expensive and there is a cheaper option nearby (A4). With TEEM open, BREBEMI owners claim a 35% increase in cars, which is not bad, but still too low for them to break even.
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Old June 5th, 2015, 01:17 PM   #8342
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Spain and Portugal built a very oversized motorway network in the past 2 years, mostly thanks to EU funds. While having a comprehensive network with many motorways connecting the major cities each other and with border crossings is a good thing, those two countries have several redundant motorways, i.e. two motorways parallel each other serving the same route (not only near larger cities, but also for 100-200 km). You hardly see such situations in countries such Italy, Germany, France. In Italy there are only A4\A35 in Lombardy and A14\SS16 in Apulia (SS16 is a toll-free expressway parallel to the tolled A14).
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 5th, 2015, 02:27 PM   #8343
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Spain and Portugal built a very oversized motorway network in the past 2 years, mostly thanks to EU funds. While having a comprehensive network with many motorways connecting the major cities each other and with border crossings is a good thing, those two countries have several redundant motorways, i.e. two motorways parallel each other serving the same route (not only near larger cities, but also for 100-200 km). You hardly see such situations in countries such Italy, Germany, France. In Italy there are only A4\A35 in Lombardy and A14\SS16 in Apulia (SS16 is a toll-free expressway parallel to the tolled A14).
You forget the A1 between Bologna and Firenze. We can also say that the Firenze-Pisa-Livorno is the twin motorway of the Firenze-Mare. And the superstrada between malpensa airport to Milan could be also considerated parallel of the A9 Milano- Varese.
I think Italy, France or Germany have a good balanced road network. It's not the case of spain and portugal... How needs empty motorway?
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Old June 5th, 2015, 02:41 PM   #8344
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That is not a matter of population density, it's just that it is way too expensive and there is a cheaper option nearby (A4). With TEEM open, BREBEMI owners claim a 35% increase in cars, which is not bad, but still too low for them to break even.
I was talkin about spain, we find this situation in many area of the country. I don't feel it in italy when I drive in your country.You right the A4 is cheaper, but for sombody how lives in east Milan the Brebemi is a good solution I think. Other problems I see with the oversize road in those contrys is the futur maintenance! What hapen when those road will have 20-30 years? I think they will have a huge problems with that. In the past that was a huge challenge for country like Italy and Germany with the first old motorway of both. As we know maintenance is sometimes more expensive than build a new one, we experiment this in switzerland with Gothard tunnel for exemple... See the A3 Salerno-Reggio it was practically re build. Italy must also be careful with this point,waht do you think?
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Old June 5th, 2015, 03:17 PM   #8345
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Since the motorway network in Italy went private (around 2000) maintenance is not a big issue. The problem arises with motorways which are still owned by the State (A3 as you mentioned, but also some motorways in Sicily like the A19 which is interrupted by a bridge failure).

Our motorway grid is not very extensive - we have half the area of France or Spain, and half the motorway length, but the same population, so many of them are more crowded than in other countries.
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Old June 5th, 2015, 03:34 PM   #8346
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Since the motorway network in Italy went private (around 2000) maintenance is not a big issue. The problem arises with motorways which are still owned by the State (A3 as you mentioned, but also some motorways in Sicily like the A19 which is interrupted by a bridge failure).

Our motorway grid is not very extensive - we have half the area of France or Spain, and half the motorway length, but the same population, so many of them are more crowded than in other countries.
As you know, Italy looks like having a small network because we have many roads that are de-facto motorways but are included in the national roads network and thus not included in motorway statistics. In Spain, the motorway network includes both autopistas and autovias. We need to use the same measure to compare two countries.
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And the superstrada between malpensa airport to Milan could be also considerated parallel of the A9 Milano- Varese.
It's within Milan metro area and it's not that long, so it's useful to separate local traffic with long-distance traffic.
It's A8, BTW. A9 is the one between A8 and Como.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old June 5th, 2015, 03:51 PM   #8347
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As you know, Italy looks like having a small network because we have many roads that are de-facto motorways but are included in the national roads network and thus not included in motorway statistics. In Spain, the motorway network includes both autopistas and autovias. We need to use the same measure to compare two countries.
Autovias and superstrade are not the same things. Autovias are basically motorways, with emergency lanes, while vast majority of superstrade are narrower and without emergency lanes.
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Old June 5th, 2015, 04:33 PM   #8348
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Since the motorway network in Italy went private (around 2000) maintenance is not a big issue. The problem arises with motorways which are still owned by the State (A3 as you mentioned, but also some motorways in Sicily like the A19 which is interrupted by a bridge failure).

Our motorway grid is not very extensive - we have half the area of France or Spain, and half the motorway length, but the same population, so many of them are more crowded than in other countries.
Okay but spain is 20 million less populated than Italy. And UK have less road extension than italy but the same population. Well it's hard to know the exact extension of the grid in Italy, I mean include autostrada and superstrada, "racordo autostradale", "diramazione", "tengenziale" etc... I calculate aproximatly 7000 km of autostrada and 1700 km of superstrada. In wikipedia it's also not clear specialy for superstrada. I think even Anas don't know...
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Old June 5th, 2015, 04:35 PM   #8349
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
As you know, Italy looks like having a small network because we have many roads that are de-facto motorways but are included in the national roads network and thus not included in motorway statistics. In Spain, the motorway network includes both autopistas and autovias. We need to use the same measure to compare two countries.

It's within Milan metro area and it's not that long, so it's useful to separate local traffic with long-distance traffic.
It's A8, BTW. A9 is the one between A8 and Como.
Corect!
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Old June 5th, 2015, 04:36 PM   #8350
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[QUOTE=italystf;124554185]As you know, Italy looks like having a small network because we have many roads that are de-facto motorways

Yes this is exactly what I say on the previous post.
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Old June 5th, 2015, 04:46 PM   #8351
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Well it's hard to know the exact extension of the grid in Italy, I mean include autostrada and superstrada, "racordo autostradale", "diramazione", "tengenziale" etc... I calculate aproximatly 7000 km of autostrada and 1700 km of superstrada. In wikipedia it's also not clear specialy for superstrada. I think even Anas don't know...
It's a very hard task to calculate the total lenght of Italian expressways, since many SS roads are partly regular roads and partly expressways. There are 700+ SS roads in Italy (including those downgraded to SR or SP), not counting diramazioni, raddoppi and raccordi and roads with temporary number (NSA***). Each of it has a page on it.wikipedia.
Anas may know the lenght of Anas-managed expressways, but there are also expressways managed by motorway concessionaries (SS35 is managed by Serravalle S.p.A.), by regions (FI-PI-LI in Tuscany), by provinces (SP14 near Milan) and by city councils (Tangenziale Est di Roma, part of Padova ringroad).
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old June 5th, 2015, 04:53 PM   #8352
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If I resume the autostrada and supestrada in construction in Italy:

Pedemontana Veneta
Pedemontana Lombarda
A12 Genova- Roma completation
A1 variante Bologna-Firenze
ss 318 Fabriano-Perugia
ss 77 Foligno marche
ss 675 Viterbo-Tarquinia
ss 534 A3- Sibari
ss 106 locri
a18 rossolini-ragusa
ss 640 caltanisseta-agrigento
ss 16 Maglie-Otranto
ss223 Grosseto-Siena
A31 val d'astico sud completation

We have a lot of work ongoing here!
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Old June 5th, 2015, 06:13 PM   #8353
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i.e. two motorways parallel each other serving the same route (not only near larger cities, but also for 100-200 km). You hardly see such situations in countries such Italy, Germany, France.
Italy, perhaps not, but France and Germany have built redundancy in their network.

OK, France, especially, goes with them some distance apart and serving different intermediate towns en route. Germany provides its redundancy via the grid system.

Spain decided to upgrade the N roads to a fairly decent standard, then bypass them with tolled Autopista, then decided to upgrade the original route slightly to make Autovia (which, when upgraded old routes, are pretty low standard), meaning that their numbering is (and its hard to do) more confusing than the Italian autostrade and their network is crazy.
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Old June 6th, 2015, 03:04 AM   #8354
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A video of A3, showing some parts rebuilt to modern standards and some others at old specs, and a tunnel whose replacement works are stopped because of asbestos.



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Old June 6th, 2015, 10:09 PM   #8355
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Nice! Is there any other Italian autostrada with a 120 km/h speed limit?
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Old June 6th, 2015, 10:58 PM   #8356
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Not that I know of
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Old June 7th, 2015, 01:54 AM   #8357
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A4 Milano Est - Bergamo / Autostrada Serenissima

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Old June 7th, 2015, 03:19 PM   #8358
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Another A3 video, south of Cosenza, through a sector still on its old standards

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Old June 7th, 2015, 04:44 PM   #8359
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If I resume the autostrada and supestrada in construction in Italy:

Pedemontana Veneta
Pedemontana Lombarda
A12 Genova- Roma completation
A1 variante Bologna-Firenze
ss 318 Fabriano-Perugia
ss 77 Foligno marche
ss 675 Viterbo-Tarquinia
ss 534 A3- Sibari
ss 106 locri
a18 rossolini-ragusa
...
Rosolini-Modica
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Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Prima parte
Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Seconda parte

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Old June 7th, 2015, 10:07 PM   #8360
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Another A3 video, south of Cosenza, through a sector still on its old standards

It says that this section will be bypassed by a new allignment.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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