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Old February 3rd, 2017, 01:04 PM   #9521
OulaL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luki_SL View Post
I think it was abandoned after the second carriageway was built
Likely so, but that doesn't answer the question "why".

That junction used to serve the village of Montezemolo, which is now signposted from the previous junction (the one from which this discussion began in the first place). Probably the AADTs weren't big enough to justify two junctions so close to each other.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 02:38 PM   #9522
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Does someone know if restaurant has been built and opened yet on A1 Variante di Valico northbound (new highway between Firenze and Bologna). I believe rest area is called Badia Nuova est https://goo.gl/maps/7VHEELDUNbm
I can't find any info on the internet.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 02:48 PM   #9523
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Does someone know if restaurant has been built and opened yet on A1 Variante di Valico northbound (new highway between Firenze and Bologna). I believe rest area is called Badia Nuova est https://goo.gl/maps/7VHEELDUNbm
I can't find any info on the internet.
Not yet, but in fact there are no news on the net about inauguration date...
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Old February 4th, 2017, 05:11 PM   #9524
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I am a bit ambivalent about the closed-system design of most of Italian autostrade.

Because toll plazas, due to geography, are often difficult to place, not every municipality can get "their" own exit, and traffic flows better to the extent that short-distance ( <10km) traffic is often forced into local roads instead. Indirectly, this provides an incentive for some bypasses, ring road and/or city tunnels to be built.

However, these toll plazas take an enormous amount of space, and are very expensive to build.

In principle, I am in favor of free-flow tolling, keeping the closed nature of the system intact though. In practice, I have some fears that might lead to towns asking for more exits (once toll plaza removal makes it much easier to build new exists with just 4 ramps tight near the main ROW...), and, more worrying, an expansion of the trend of local governments asking for special concession and privileges for their own citizens to travel small distances on highway without paying tolls or paying heavily discounted tolls...
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Old February 4th, 2017, 05:39 PM   #9525
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I don't get it.

It is a good thing that local traffic is forced on local roads. That's what they're for.
And why should municipalities ask for new exits? I mean, they can, but often they're not gonna get them.

The only thing I can think of that can save space is bi-directional rest areas, like I saw in Austria.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 05:54 PM   #9526
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It's a fine balance, and depends on many factors like the local road system. Too few exits: too much traffic on a local road network (passing through several villages / towns to reach a destination), too many exits: overburdened motorway with a lot of merging.

It is sometimes complained that the Netherlands has too many exits so a lot of short-distance traffic uses the motorway. I don't quite agree with that as our motorway system that was once intercity, is now mainly used similar to a large metropolitan area. In addition, there is not much political will to upgrade the secondary road system, so most money flows to motorway upgrades.

In case of Italy, the secondary road system is not as effective to avoid tolls. It takes a lot of more time to travel longer distances on SS / SP / SR roads, compared to Spain or France. For example between Milan and Bologna, Google Maps suggests that taking non-toll roads requires some 2 hours of additional travel time compared to A1.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 06:15 PM   #9527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I don't get it.

It is a good thing that local traffic is forced on local roads. That's what they're for.
And why should municipalities ask for new exits? I mean, they can, but often they're not gonna get them.

The only thing I can think of that can save space is bi-directional rest areas, like I saw in Austria.
I agree with you that local traffic better stay on local roads!

I am also in favor of free-flow tolls to get rid of toll plazas, not only for space they take, but their cost (which ultimately translate into higher tolls overall).

My point is that I am afraid removing toll plazas would make it easier to build more exits, which is not necessarily a good thing (as you said).
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Old February 4th, 2017, 06:16 PM   #9528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I don't get it.
The only thing I can think of that can save space is bi-directional rest areas, like I saw in Austria.
I can think of a number of complicated exits and even interchanges being much simplified, even on flatland, like A4-A55 connection in Torino.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 06:23 PM   #9529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
In case of Italy, the secondary road system is not as effective to avoid tolls. It takes a lot of more time to travel longer distances on SS / SP / SR roads, compared to Spain or France. For example between Milan and Bologna, Google Maps suggests that taking non-toll roads requires some 2 hours of additional travel time compared to A1.
Toll avoidance is Italy is more easily achieved in some long-distance routes for which non-tolled alternatives exists, such as SS3bis, SS17 or SS16 in Puglia (which is the closest thing to a competing parallel highway, Spanish-style, Italy has).
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Old February 4th, 2017, 08:15 PM   #9530
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Toll avoidance is Italy is more easily achieved in some long-distance routes for which non-tolled alternatives exists, such as SS3bis, SS17 or SS16 in Puglia (which is the closest thing to a competing parallel highway, Spanish-style, Italy has).
Or FI-PI-LI instead of A11. Or Florence-Rome via Siena, Grosseto and Civitavecchia.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old February 4th, 2017, 08:18 PM   #9531
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Trieste - Torino is 9-10 hours of non-stop driving if you want to avoid tolls
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Old February 4th, 2017, 09:11 PM   #9532
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What takes up space is not just the toll plaza itself; it is also the philosophy that every single vehicle must pass under the same roof, regardless their direction. This just adds useless spaghetti, especially when we still want to keep it grade separated. Take Bolzano South for example: there is a tolled motorway, a free motorway and several connections to city streets, and all of them have grade separated ramps between each other, and all traffic relevant to the toll plaza passes under a single roof.

Obviously this makes it easier for the staff to change their position depending on which direction is more congested, but then again, the whole point of the road system is to serve the motorists.

What are maybe the most ridiculous thing are situations, in which the motorist both enters and exits the toll motorway in the same place: Ventimiglia and Sterzing, maybe some others I don't remember. Take a ticket, drive around a loop, give the ticket away and pay; instead of having a single, separated ramp with a single direct payment (no ticket needed, because the amount would be obvious).
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Old February 4th, 2017, 09:50 PM   #9533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I agree with you that local traffic better stay on local roads!

I am also in favor of free-flow tolls to get rid of toll plazas, not only for space they take, but their cost (which ultimately translate into higher tolls overall).

My point is that I am afraid removing toll plazas would make it easier to build more exits, which is not necessarily a good thing (as you said).
I just realized that you were talking about toll plazas, but I was thinking about rest areas... Sorry about the confusion
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Old February 4th, 2017, 09:58 PM   #9534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OulaL View Post
What takes up space is not just the toll plaza itself; it is also the philosophy that every single vehicle must pass under the same roof, regardless their direction. This just adds useless spaghetti, especially when we still want to keep it grade separated. Take Bolzano South for example: there is a tolled motorway, a free motorway and several connections to city streets, and all of them have grade separated ramps between each other, and all traffic relevant to the toll plaza passes under a single roof.

Obviously this makes it easier for the staff to change their position depending on which direction is more congested, but then again, the whole point of the road system is to serve the motorists.

What are maybe the most ridiculous thing are situations, in which the motorist both enters and exits the toll motorway in the same place: Ventimiglia and Sterzing, maybe some others I don't remember. Take a ticket, drive around a loop, give the ticket away and pay; instead of having a single, separated ramp with a single direct payment (no ticket needed, because the amount would be obvious).
Some new tolled motorways like A4 Dolo-Quarto d'Altino (Passante di Mestre) or A31 Vicenza-Badia Polesine (Valdastico Sud) have roundabout interchanges (with the motorway passing above the roundabout) and 4 small toll barriers at each ramp. Minimal waste of space.

As for Ventimiglia and Vipiteno/Sterzing: it was done on purpose, to charge drivers travelling from France to Ventimiglia (and vice-versa) and from Austria to Vipiteno/Sterzing (and vice-versa).
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 11:09 AM   #9535
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Italy is a prime candidate for free-flow tolling. Removal of toll plazas and simplifying a large number of strange interchanges would reduce travel times. There is a slight problem - it appears that abandoned structures and roads seem very rarely removed and land under them recultivated.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 11:19 AM   #9536
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We don't want slovenians to use our motorways for free!
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Old February 5th, 2017, 11:20 AM   #9537
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Anyways nowadays it is not tre anymore. All abandoned stretches of A3 have been or will be renaturalised. When you have been building motorways from the early 50' you have some uneven behaviours over the decades
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Old February 5th, 2017, 04:57 PM   #9538
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New junction of Firenzuola

I forgot to post it earlier, but on January 30th, it opened the new junction of Firenzuola, on A1var Bologna-Florence.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/44.0712/11.2433
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old February 5th, 2017, 08:07 PM   #9539
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We don't want slovenians to use our motorways for free!
... "free flow" does not mean "free of charge".
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Old February 5th, 2017, 08:29 PM   #9540
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It does for foreigners that can easily drive on them without paying.

Autostrade will never start an international dispute to have such low amounts of money.
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