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Old October 26th, 2009, 08:33 PM   #1461
ChrisZwolle
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Tokyo has them too
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Old October 26th, 2009, 09:04 PM   #1462
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But they are in a built up area, not in the middle of woods and fields. That's different!
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Old October 26th, 2009, 10:15 PM   #1463
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Signal fot FI-PI-LI

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Old October 27th, 2009, 12:43 PM   #1464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Artificial tunnel on flat terrain are common today (not just in Italy). Just look at the SS 336 motorway to Milan Malpensa airport:

- near a village, but still in the middle of fields
- another tunnel (in this old photo still under construction)
- a beatyful tunnel in the middle of nowhere
- again, again and again...
I agree with you in some way artificial tunnels are kinda trendy: but their justification is due to attenuate environmental impact of new infrastructures...
Then I think (as for Mestre bypass) many of 'em were 'imposed' by local administrations (even if we are in Milan metro area: but there is not a metropolitan figure for the planning, than the subjects involved in single infrastructural projects are dozens)
I agree with you their use is excessive, but, anyway it is not exactly in the middle of nowhere: I think they could be useful (despite the reason they were created) to better link the urban sprawl (which will drive to be a single conurbation as pratically the only 'non-urbanized' -almost- strip you can find overthere is the one where Superstrada runs
In the picture where there is a tunnel in the wood: it is the Ticinum Natural Park nearby Malpensa Airport: they wanted to 'reforest' as possible

This part, actually, is the old superstrada which drives to Malpensa from A8 (the other pics are referred to the one wich runs from A4; the two superstrada anyway converge on Malpensa and you could run from one to another without interchanges)
It was opened about 10 years earlier than the other one with different standards: no shoulder and more 'awful' exits
Then to build artificial tunnels was not as 'trendy' as today (infact in many new motorways there is a large use of 'em; for istance Pedemontana).
To add that when it was built urbanization in that strip was lower, but always very dense though

Anyway there are few artificial tunnels even on that stretch

http://maps.google.it/maps?hl=it&ie=...13572&t=h&z=17
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Last edited by GENIUS LOCI; October 27th, 2009 at 12:50 PM.
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Old October 27th, 2009, 03:59 PM   #1465
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Some pics of the two stretches

[IMG]http://i38.************/eufzuw.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i33.************/rm5ykz.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i33.************/4vspw9.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i34.************/w9cuv7.jpg[/IMG]

The 'old' one

[IMG]http://i38.************/pvl6o.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i35.************/ae9qn4.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i38.************/156sikj.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i36.************/2i96rfa.jpg[/IMG]
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Old October 28th, 2009, 01:24 PM   #1466
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I guess the earlier examples of arifical tunnel were those along the Tarvisio -Udine (A27?) Autostrada in the late '80s where real tunnes were joined by some artificial structure that was later buried. . They obtained this way a deep re-naturalization of a few dales that became isolated and wild comparably to what they were 2.000 years ago. Or so I'm told.
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Old November 1st, 2009, 12:13 AM   #1467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Colbert View Post
The construction of A12 between Livorno and Rome could start next year
has somebody current infomations concerning this topic?
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Old November 8th, 2009, 04:47 PM   #1468
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A new modern bridge has been opened to traffic during this week, at Padua.
This bridge connect norther district to city centre a little better that before (maybe!).

Here you can see this bridge:





On the next week, I'll make some pics of this bridge
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Old November 9th, 2009, 05:53 PM   #1469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post
I don't know... see what happened in last 15/20 years in countries like France or Spain (or what is happening now in East Europe countries)
Till '80s they hadn't wide webs in comparison to other European countries, like Germany or Italy, for istance
They decided to dramatically increase the motorway web in few years investing resources; and they now have diffused webs with 'nowadays' standards

Ok, the nature of their territory didn't oblidge 'em to build as many tunnels and viaducts as Italy did.

Anyway I think it could be possible to build a web like the current one in Italy with nowadays standards and in relatively few years... if you got the money.
In '60s and '70s Italy spent a large amount of money on road infrastructure.
Now we have a 'monster' debt (partly due to the spending of those years) and find the money for infrastructures is harder

In fact this is the central question, the money.
Don't forget that we are paying our infrastructures with our own money and the Spain is building its Autopistas web with EU money, our money again(F, D, I, NL in primis).
Is very simple in this way...

Italy receive funds from EU as well but we receive less money than what we pay, in fact we are net payer, like German, France and Netherland.
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Old November 9th, 2009, 05:54 PM   #1470
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So? There have to be net payers to let the EU work. If all countries would be net receivers, there would be something wrong.. I don't mind my tax euros getting at work in Poland or Estonia.
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Old November 10th, 2009, 10:43 AM   #1471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
So? There have to be net payers to let the EU work. ...
Is not this the question.
You are comparing Spain and Italy, in my opinion is an uncorrect comparision because, as I told before, we are net payer and Spain isn't.
The correct comparision is between Italy and the other EU net payer as Germany/France/UK/NL and so on.

In conclusion we are paying (for our part) the spaniard Autopistas and, in according with our public debt as told Genious Loci, we are building some infrastructure in our country.
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Old November 10th, 2009, 10:46 AM   #1472
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As far as I know, Spain is currently only a few % away from being a net payer. That used to be different in the 90's though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_...state_analysis

Spain receives € 49 per capita, the lowest receiver in the EU. Highest receiver is Luxembourg at € 16170? (that can't be right) and the highest payer is - hey - the Netherlands at € - 1467

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; November 10th, 2009 at 10:59 AM.
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Old November 10th, 2009, 11:19 AM   #1473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
As far as I know, Spain is currently only a few % away from being a net payer. That used to be different in the 90's though.
...
Sure, but is still a receiver and of course in the '90 was different, in that years began the construction af Autopistas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
...and the highest payer is - hey - the Netherlands at € - 1467

I know, but we are the 3rd payer, after Germany and France, regards for total Money to UE and for Ratio of money (Out/In)
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Old November 10th, 2009, 11:33 AM   #1474
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To enter or exit at Millesimo on the A6 to or from the Savona-Torino carriageway you have to travel a few km on the opposite carriageway:

http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=d&sourc...5,0.01811&z=16
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Old November 10th, 2009, 11:32 PM   #1475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Highest receiver is Luxembourg at € 16170? (that can't be right)
That's because of numeral European institutions, which they have to fund.
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Old November 28th, 2009, 03:34 PM   #1476
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This summer I've traveled over most of Sicilian autostradas, but until now I've presented only A20. Let's continue:

A29 Palermo - interchange with A29dir (- Mazara del Vallo)
:
This 121 km long motorway is free of charge (owned by ANAS) and probably has the best quality of Sicilian free autostradas (at least older ones). It runs west of Palermo and with A29dir it connects western part of Sicily with Palermo. I've taken pictures until interchange with A29dir at Alcamo (about 60 km).

1 - Still in the Palermo suburbs, going west


2 - landscape is nice, also quality is pretty decent for Sicily


3 -


4 - Villagrazia di Carini exit


5 -


6 - Terassini exit


7 - steep walls


8 - motorists are everywhere


9 - more west and away from coast it becomes a bit more flat


10 - provincial border signage


11 - Alcamo-west exit


12 - missing paint


13 - at A29dir interchange


14 - same interchange, going towards Palermo (in the back you can see pretty large viaduct)


15 -


16 - Palermo suburbs


17 - border between ANAS jurisdiction and city of Palermo, notice change in guardrails and white lines. This is officially end/begin of A29.

Last edited by keber; November 29th, 2009 at 03:55 PM.
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Old November 28th, 2009, 03:58 PM   #1477
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Cool scenery, reminds me of Tunisia.

By the way, driving so unprotected on a scooter on a motorway can be pretty dangerous when you fall. The asphalt will raze off all your skin.
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Old November 28th, 2009, 04:52 PM   #1478
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Spectacular landscape.
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Old November 28th, 2009, 05:13 PM   #1479
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Wait when you see A19.
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Old November 28th, 2009, 06:26 PM   #1480
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Continuing:

A29dir Alcamo - Trapani:
This is a deviation of A29, leading to city of Trapani (37 km) on far west end of Sicily and with a special deviation (which is not specially marked) to Trapani airport (extra 12 km). It is 2x2 without emergency lanes and has relatively low traffic. It leads over relatively easy terrain, but it has a number of unnecessary and very expensive objects.

A map from Wikipedia


1 - Shortly after A29-A29dir interchange a series of very long viaducts begin


2 -


3 - Landscape reminds to that of southern Spain


4 - with eucalypti


5 - and typical Mediterranean cypresses


6 - quality is generally good for Sicily, but with loud expansion joints on objects, when you travel over them


7 -


8 - Fulgatore exit


9 -


10 - Trapani in background, here ends A29dir (northern branch)


11 - back towards Palermo


12 - a view from the top of Segesta greek theatre


13 - count all the viaducts (in background A29 is seen)


14 - A29dir-A29 interchange on viaducts, left goes to Palermo, right to Mazara de Valle

Last edited by keber; November 28th, 2009 at 07:11 PM.
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