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Old January 18th, 2010, 06:44 PM   #1521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman159 View Post


Heading west on the A4 near Brescia, the overhead sign towards the A21 even lists Torino as a destination.
It's true! The shortest way to reach Torino is following the A4, but sometimes the faster one is to take the A21!
Quote:
Originally Posted by x-type View Post
generally speaking, which town's tangenziali are worse for transit traffic, Milano's or Torino's?
I think Milano's, way bigger agglomeration from which many important highways depart in every direction! Lot of heavy traffic!

But in Turin the "tangenziale" is not a complete circle and this is a big disadvantage too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
My guess is Milano.

The A4 has 2x3 lanes, and the Torino bypass also has 2x3 lanes, but Milano is a far larger agglomeration.
The Milan section of the A4 is a big problem! Today is totally inadequate for the amount of vehicles driving on it and it's almost impossibile to enlarge it! Every kind of solution for this purpose would be very expensive!

BTW the new motorway (Pedemontana lombarda) that is going to be built from Dalmine (few kms before Bergamo) to Malpensa Airport will help (a little) in taking some traffic away from the A4!
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Old January 18th, 2010, 07:14 PM   #1522
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With the development of the Pedemontana and the BreBeMi motorways, I guess we'll face signs of relief around the Milan's area.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 07:21 PM   #1523
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And don't forget the TEM from Melegnano to Agrate!

After those 3 new motorways the problem will be the west! We need a sort of new external "tangenziale" in the western and southern area (from Magenta to Melegnano, via Binasco)...
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Old January 18th, 2010, 08:55 PM   #1524
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The TEM will do more to relief congestion in the Tangenziale than the BreMeMi or the Pedemontana. Not that those highways are not needed - they are at least 15 years past critical need -, but much of the Tangenziale Est traffic happens because the connections from the populated comuni there with one another are poor. There are a lot of roads coming to Milano (than becoming avenues, boulevards or single streets :S) in a concentric design, but almost no fast connection linking them all. So if you are coming from that region and going to, say, Malpensa, you can choose: (1) negotiate Milan urban traffic; (2) enjoy the traffic jams on the Tangenziale.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 09:01 PM   #1525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-type View Post
generally speaking, which town's tangenziali are worse for transit traffic, Milano's or Torino's?
Milano has far worse "semi-ring road" jams. Although Torino has not a complete "ring", Torino is far less a "highway nod" on the national network like Milano. Apart from those accessing the freeway all the way to Frejus tunnel, you can avoid or bypass Torino in every other major journey. In Milano, it just doesn't happen: you have the A1 coming from Bologna and carrying traffic from from everything southern than it, you have the busy northern connections with Switzerland, you have heavy cross-traffic from industrial areas on the east heading for logistic facilities in the west (like Malpensa Airport), and a city which urban throughfares are far less optimized than Torino's.

BTW, until a couple years ago Bologna had one of the worst bottlonecks in its Tangenziale, before they massively expanded it.

Now, I'm afraid they are taking too long to build a second ring-road in Roma...
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Old January 18th, 2010, 09:09 PM   #1526
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The areas north and northwest of Milano are also heavily urbanized, this continues all the way to Lago Maggiore and Lago di Como, that is 40 - 50 km outside central Milano. Not to mention A4 is the only east-west connection in an urbanized area of a few million people. The Provincia di Milano has a population of 3.117.000 and 1,8 million of them live outside the Milano city proper, mostly to the north.

This is what the area north of Milano looks like:
[IMG]http://i49.************/j7wbvs.jpg[/IMG]
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Old January 18th, 2010, 09:46 PM   #1527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The areas north and northwest of Milano are also heavily urbanized, this continues all the way to Lago Maggiore and Lago di Como, that is 40 - 50 km outside central Milano. Not to mention A4 is the only east-west connection in an urbanized area of a few million people. The Provincia di Milano has a population of 3.117.000 and 1,8 million of them live outside the Milano city proper, mostly to the north.

This is what the area north of Milano looks like:
[IMG]http://i49.************/j7wbvs.jpg[/IMG]
most parts of this is actually outside the Milan province. These areas are part mainly of Monza province, but also Como, Lecco and maybe Varese

The Milan metro area as a whole has 7-8 million people. Only the north accounts for about 5

The picture above will be crossed west-east by the pedemontana, the new highway that will bypass the A4 in the north
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Old January 18th, 2010, 09:47 PM   #1528
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New autostrade: tem, brebemi and a piece of pedemontana:



source: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tracciato_Brebemi.svg

Pedemontana:


source:http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pe...a_lombarda.svg
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Old January 18th, 2010, 10:11 PM   #1529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
The picture above will be crossed west-east by the pedemontana, the new highway that will bypass the A4 in the north
Am I mistaken or are new roads like the Pedemontana, the BreBeMi and the TEM primarily improvements for traffic within the Milan region? For through traffic (say: Gotthard to Rome or Torino to Verona), they don't seem to add a lot. From North to South, you still need to use the Tangenziale Ovest. From East to West, it's still the A4, although the A21 is an alternate for traffic that originates from or goes to Torino.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 10:25 PM   #1530
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But how much traffic will actually drive A21 from end to end? Long-distance traffic is usually grossly overestimated. If the A21 gets 20.000 - 30.000 AADT, maybe 10% of that drives the full length (240 km). So on an A4 that carries (my guess) 150.000 AADT, maybe 2.000 - 3.000 is absorbed by A21.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 10:46 PM   #1531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Am I mistaken or are new roads like the Pedemontana, the BreBeMi and the TEM primarily improvements for traffic within the Milan region? For through traffic (say: Gotthard to Rome or Torino to Verona), they don't seem to add a lot. From North to South, you still need to use the Tangenziale Ovest. From East to West, it's still the A4, although the A21 is an alternate for traffic that originates from or goes to Torino.
the main advantage is the separation of the traffic.

Today A4 and the 3 tangenziali cope both with the metro-area huge traffic (this is almost an american sprawling city) AND with the transit traffic of north Italy. Turin-Venezia, Switzerland-Italy, Genoa-north europe and so on.

BRE-BE-MI will create an alternative to A4 for intra-region traffic (and metropolitan traffic) reducing traffic on A4. This highway is U/C

TEM will create an alternative to tangenziale est to bypass Milan coming from south and going north, west and easth. And yes, will also cope with the local traffic.

Pedemontana is the most interesting: it will basically connect directly the east of the country (and the traffic coming from balkans) to the airport of Malpensa and the highways to go to switzerland. And yes, will cope with the local traffic.

All these new alternatives will contribute to specialize A4 in mainly long-distance traffic rather than the current situation.

Moreover A4 (which is already 1+4+4+1 lanes between Milan and Bergamo) will add a fourth lane between Novara (ok a little before that) and Milan and the hurban stretch of Milan.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 10:50 PM   #1532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucaf1 View Post
New autostrade: tem, brebemi and a piece of pedemontana:



source: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tracciato_Brebemi.svg

Pedemontana:


source:http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pe...a_lombarda.svg
There is a missing project from this map: A52 will be continued untill merging with A8. this will become another alternative to A4 and will complete the ring of tangenziali around Milan.

The street exists already but has to be upgraded.

Work shall start in 2011-2012 and finish before the world expo of 2015

The same date is valid for all the new highways, bar Bre-Be-Mi which shall be ready in 2012
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Old January 18th, 2010, 11:46 PM   #1533
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Verona-Torino for Google Maps:
321 km and 3h07 via A21
291 km and 3h16 via A4
GM suggest only the A21, and dont't show the A4, even as alternative.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 11:55 PM   #1534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
But how much traffic will actually drive A21 from end to end? Long-distance traffic is usually grossly overestimated. If the A21 gets 20.000 - 30.000 AADT, maybe 10% of that drives the full length (240 km). So on an A4 that carries (my guess) 150.000 AADT, maybe 2.000 - 3.000 is absorbed by A21.
i'd say that most of A4's traffic is local traffic or ends in Milano area (and, of course, direction Mont Blanc or northwestern Italy). for traffic ending in Torino (coming from Verona) i wouldn't bet, i still think that A4 also carries more of it than A21. but A21 carries probably 95% of traffic from Verona to Liguria and southern France.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 12:05 AM   #1535
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Verona-Susa (on the A32 west of Torino) for Google Maps:
371 km and 3h29 via A21
341 km and 3h41 via A4
Curiously GM doesn't show the A4 option as an alternative, but suggest to use A4+A4/5+A5 (357 km and 3h40). Fear of traffic jams?
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Old January 19th, 2010, 12:34 AM   #1536
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Old January 19th, 2010, 12:48 AM   #1537
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Ok this is my first attempt to document a highway...please bear with me.

The highway is one of the most beautiful and scenografic in Italy, probalby in Europe: A25 Torano-Pescara, a branch of the highways of Abruzzo connecting Rome to Pescara

We start close to Chieti


hills of the coastal part of Abruzzo


Getting close to the deep valley which connects coastal Abruzzo with inner Abruzzo: the landscape gets wild


Inside the deep valley: a river, a street, a railway, a highway all share the few meters of this gap, the only one in Abruzzo. The first "modern" factory of Abruzzo is hidden here, used to make chemical weapons during WWI


After the gap the landscape broadens again in the valley of Sulmona


We start going up together with the railway...a 19th century marvel. Unfortunately most pictures from now one did not come out...there were very spectacular view


After a 4 km-long tunnel we get into the valley of Fucino, a former lake first drained by the romans.




Fucino valley and the Sirente mountain in the back


Celano, a village with a spectacular castle on top








Getting close to my village...

Last edited by Eddard Stark; January 19th, 2010 at 12:55 AM.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 12:49 AM   #1538
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umpf...they come out very small

Last edited by Eddard Stark; January 19th, 2010 at 12:55 AM.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 02:51 AM   #1539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The TEM will do more to relief congestion in the Tangenziale than the BreMeMi or the Pedemontana. Not that those highways are not needed - they are at least 15 years past critical need -, but much of the Tangenziale Est traffic happens because the connections from the populated comuni there with one another are poor. There are a lot of roads coming to Milano (than becoming avenues, boulevards or single streets :S) in a concentric design, but almost no fast connection linking them all. So if you are coming from that region and going to, say, Malpensa, you can choose: (1) negotiate Milan urban traffic; (2) enjoy the traffic jams on the Tangenziale.
I agree with you! I think the TEM has almost the same importance of Pedemontana!

All the traffic coming from South and going towards East (and viceversa) will take it, instead of going on the old "tangenziale est"! And the same is for Pedemontana: all the traffic coming from East ang going toward North (and viceversa) will take it, instead of going on the urban stretch of A4!

Both TEM and Pedemontana will have the function of bypassing Milan!
For the same purpose it's very important to begin to project an external bypass also in the western/southern part of Milan, in order to direct on it all the traffic coming from West and going towards South (and viceversa)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
BTW, until a couple years ago Bologna had one of the worst bottlonecks in its Tangenziale, before they massively expanded it.
How many hours I lost in the old "tangenziale" of Bologna! In the past I had to pass there (2 times: going and returning) almost once a week! Terrible!
The upgrade was one of the most useful things done in Italy in recent years!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The areas north and northwest of Milano are also heavily urbanized, this continues all the way to Lago Maggiore and Lago di Como, that is 40 - 50 km outside central Milano. Not to mention A4 is the only east-west connection in an urbanized area of a few million people. The Provincia di Milano has a population of 3.117.000 and 1,8 million of them live outside the Milano city proper, mostly to the north.

This is what the area north of Milano looks like:
http://i49.************/j7wbvs.jpg
Be careful reading datas... the area surrounding Milan is splitted in a lot of provinces, so many people depending on Milan don't appear in the province amount!
For example if you go 10 km far from Milan you're already in the province of Monza... a city that in the next years will be connected to Milan by the underground, just to make you figure how strict the link between this two territories is! But despite this the inhabitants of Monza (and surrounding towns) won't figure among the inhabitants of the province of Milan, se be careful with datas, because often they're very undervalued!
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Am I mistaken or are new roads like the Pedemontana, the BreBeMi and the TEM primarily improvements for traffic within the Milan region? For through traffic (say: Gotthard to Rome or Torino to Verona), they don't seem to add a lot. From North to South, you still need to use the Tangenziale Ovest. From East to West, it's still the A4, although the A21 is an alternate for traffic that originates from or goes to Torino.
They will be improvements for both the local and the passing traffic!

Pedemontana will be useful for all those going from east (A4, Bergamo, Brescia) to North (SS36, ss35, A8, A9 Lecco, Como, Varese, Malpensa Airport, Switzerland ecc) and viceversa!
TEM will be useful for all those going from South (A1) to East (A4, BreBeMi)...

Obviously, if you have to go from Bergamo (east) to Novara (west), you will have to take the Milan stretch of A4, and this is a problem! But theorically it should be a bit less congested if all people going from east to north take the Pedemontana! Moreover, another projected motorway is the "tangenziale Nord", from Monza to Rho (new fair of Milan)... This motorway already exists, and runs almost parallel to the A4, serving the local traffic!

It "only needs to be upgraded and completed in some short parts, because today is divided in two sections:
-tangenziale nord (modern, high quality/safety motorway, 1+2+2+1) from Monza (interchange with A4) to Paderno Dugnano (interchange with SS35);
-SP 46 (old, low quality/safety motorway 1+2+2+1) from Paderno Dugnano (interchange with SS35) to Bollate (where it ends with a roundabout, became a 1+1 road for few meters, than another roundaboud and then become the bypass of the new fair of Milan (totally modern, wide, high quality/safety 1+2+2+1 / 1+3+3+1 motorway)!

The "only" need is to create a direct link between the "tangenziale nord" and the SP 46 (nowaday you have to drive a bunch of metres on the SS35 if you want to go from tang. Nord to SP 46), upgrade the SP46 (about 4/5 kilometers) to a high quality/safety standard and complete it creating a direct link to the new fair bypass...
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Old January 19th, 2010, 02:51 AM   #1540
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umpf...they come out very small
Non ti preoccupare, grazie mille per le foto!
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