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Old August 2nd, 2010, 03:28 PM   #1741
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Anyone has tried to enter A6 at Milessimo, use the connection of both directions, use the other connection and exit again at Milessimo? That would be €0 in toll .
And another one: Entering in Lucca exit, going as follow: A11=>A1=>A15=>A12=>A11 and exit again in Lucca. Again €0?
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Old August 2nd, 2010, 04:30 PM   #1742
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generally, you are not allowed to exit at the same place where you've entered. in HR it is fined by paying double toll for longest possible route at that motorway. the same as you wuold loose the toll ticket. i guess the same worths for I too.
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Old August 2nd, 2010, 04:32 PM   #1743
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Old August 2nd, 2010, 05:07 PM   #1744
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Well, I once did the following to test a slightly different theory:

- entered the closed freeway system at A1 Melegnano (near Milano), direction south.

- drove through A1 to Piacenza

- then A21 to Brescia

- then A4 to Verona

- then A22 to Modena

- then A1 to Parma

- then A15 to La Spezia

- then A12 to Voltri

- then A26/A4 to Novara

- then A4 until Milano barrier (I'm talking about this twisted and absolutely weird mix of toll plaza and interchange, whose design I think is unique in Europe at least: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...13733&t=h&z=17)

The whole route is here (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sour....03125&t=h&z=8) Maybe I made a mistake or two.

What I well remember is that the toll cost me € 4,10, when Genova-Milano alone would cost me a hell more than that.

I've also made other tests. Going from France (Nice-Monaco-Menton) to Forli, there are two possible routes. You start at the A10 until Voltri. From there, you can take the A26, A26dir (a shortcut), A7, A21 and A1 all the way to Bologna. This is the "common" route, as it is shorter and allows greater speeds.

However, you could just follow through the coast (more tunnels, more curves = more fun) in the A12 and then either take A15 at La Spezia or keep going in the A12 until Lucca/Firenze then going north from Firenze on the A1 (this was not possible before 2009, as there was a short off-the-system section here (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie...,0.439453&z=12).

In any case, the fare paid would always be the same, even if I was driving a car equipped with a RFID card for automatic toll collection. Because tolls on the "Autostrada Azurra" are much more expensive then over the flat A1, I'd save € 7 staying "into the system" and going by alternatives way (which is more than the extra diesel expenses).
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Old August 2nd, 2010, 06:13 PM   #1745
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It shouldn't be a problem. If you get off A12 from direction Genova and have a ticket from Lucca, there's no other way you could get to A12 than via A1 and A15. They just don't know how many times you drove around the "ring". Bet then, if you go just from Lucca-ovest to Lucca-est, they can't know that either.
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Old August 2nd, 2010, 06:16 PM   #1746
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Quote:
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It shouldn't be a problem. If you get off A12 from direction Genova and have a ticket from Lucca, there's no other way you could get to A12 than via A1 and A15. They just don't know how many times you drove around the "ring".
Well, they do if they see on the timestamp that short section took you 5 hours.
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Old August 2nd, 2010, 07:45 PM   #1747
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Well, they do if they see on the timestamp that short section took you 5 hours.
If they haven't changed regulations, you have 36 hours to exit through a toll plaza after entering the system.
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Old August 2nd, 2010, 08:08 PM   #1748
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If they haven't changed regulations, you have 36 hours to exit through a toll plaza after entering the system.
that's probably also valid. i think in HR we have 24 hrs.
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Old August 2nd, 2010, 08:35 PM   #1749
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that's probably also valid. i think in HR we have 24 hrs.
By the way, the two largest sectors one can travel in Italy's closed motorway system without exiting it (assuming direct and feasible routes) are:

- 1192 km - exit Mont Blanc tunnel - Taranto toll plaza (€ 74,50) via Alexandria and Bologna. The route is slightly longer (13km) than the one through Milano, but any reasonable driver would avoid the Milano nod having the option.

- 1160 km - France border at Menton/Ventemiglia - Taranto toll plaza via Genova, Napoli and Bari (€ 51,20)

Notice that although both routes have almost the same length, tolls from the former are almost 50% higher. This happen because much more money was invested in widening, tunnel construction and interchanges in the first route than the second and in Italy tolls are related to both the technical complexities of the roads and money invested in expansion/construction.

Out of curiosity, there are 123 tunnels in the second route, and 31 on the first (I haven't checked the numbers by myself, but they seem feasible).

Indeed, I doubt are there any country that has as many highway tunnels as Italy.
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Old August 2nd, 2010, 08:47 PM   #1750
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It shouldn't be a problem. If you get off A12 from direction Genova and have a ticket from Lucca, there's no other way you could get to A12 than via A1 and A15.
Correction: at toll stations they can't know which direction you came from, as they serve both directions (unless they were watching you, but that's tricky). Then the only way would be to designate specific interchange ramps (direction north, south...) on tickets. There's a difference, if you go from Lucca in direction Florence or in direction Genova.
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Old August 2nd, 2010, 10:57 PM   #1751
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If they haven't changed regulations, you have 36 hours to exit through a toll plaza after entering the system.
Not my experience, for what that's worth. But my experience is limited to a delay of about two hours (got stuck behind an accident) on a trip as short as Firenze-Certoso to Pistoia. I think that on a trip as short as that, the margin to exit is much shorter.

Situation occurred in 2002, by the way, so things might have changed since then too.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 11:40 AM   #1752
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Indeed, I doubt are there any country that has as many highway tunnels as Italy.
Norway has a lot of tunnels (but few motorways).
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 02:10 PM   #1753
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This would be better:
Enter the closed system at Florence North, then go to A1 direction Rome for exit to A11, then A12, A15 and back to A1 and exit at Calenzano-Sesto Fiorentino.
That would be 400 kilometers and a few €urocents of toll! (€0.60 if you drive a bus, don't know a car...)
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 02:43 PM   #1754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Norway has a lot of tunnels (but few motorways).
Suburbanist was rfferring to highway tunnels; anyway in Italy there is even a very large amount of road tunnels which are not part of a motorway, and many railways tunnels as well
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 02:48 PM   #1755
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This would be better:
Enter the closed system at Florence North, then go to A1 direction Rome for exit to A11, then A12, A15 and back to A1 and exit at Calenzano-Sesto Fiorentino.
That would be 400 kilometers and a few €urocents of toll! (€0.60 if you drive a bus, don't know a car...)
I know this is 'a game', anyway turning around that way costs a lot of money for fuel and you have to spend too much time: obviously no one will ever do it
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 02:59 PM   #1756
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Suburbanist was rfferring to highway tunnels; anyway in Italy there is even a very large amount of road tunnels which are not part of a motorway, and many railways tunnels as well
I guess that if you account all road tunnels, the number can easily top 2.000.

But in regard of freeways only, 5.4% of overall freeway network extension are tunnels. Considering the country size, the fact many freeways run on flat-out territory and so, that is a quite impressive mark.

Even more impressing is to know that Italy had a major 13 years highway construction frenzy push that build so much so fast. Of course, I don't want to draw any flame-war about "who built faster", but when I consider the speed with which complicated sectors like the A3 (Salerno-Reggio Calabria) or the A1, let alone A10 and A26, were built, I feel it was a quite impressive achievement for a (then) still relatively poor country that had barely stopped paying war indemnities and that was still fighting things like deep poverty, malaria, undernourishment etc. in many places.

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I know this is 'a game', anyway turning around that way costs a lot of money for fuel and you have to spend too much time: obviously no one will ever do it
I would. I mean, for me driving can be also a hobby. I've done countless trips (and spent a heck lot of money) to drive just for the sake of doing it. Too bad we don't have US levels of gas taxes here.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 03:24 PM   #1757
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My list of most dramatic and exciting-to-drive highway sectors in Italy

Ok, once we are discussing it, I'll put up a list of my all-time favorite highway sections in Italy. In common they have plenty of tunnels and viaducts, dramatic views, interesting scenery and give me an overall feeling of "wow".

They are in order of preference (you can easily check why in Google Maps)

- A3 from Gioia Tauro to Reggio Calabria (impressive descent from the Calabrian highlands to coast, viaducts over 200m high, amazing view from the Sea if the sun is not blocking you. This sector is undergoing modernization and widening).

- A5 from Aosta to Mont Blanc tunnel entrance (a lot of twists and turns, with the Mont Blanc beautifully white in front of you)

- A19 from A-20 interchange to Resuttano (highway in bad shape, but the views are amazing. Includes a sequence of 3 viaducts summing 14km on a 18km sector).

- A25/A24 "U" from Pescara to Giualianova (this "U" crosses the Apennines twice, one of them through the Gran Sasso tunnel, which gives access - restricted - to the Italian National Nuclear Science Lab. The mountains are very different from the Alps, as they are in a wetter region than the South, but warmer than the Alps).

- A7 from France border line to Carvo (after leaving all the "glamour" French freeway crossing over Monaco, it is possible to have glimpses of the Ligurian Sea shadowed by mountains and dotted with precariously-hanging terraces in between tunnels).

- A6 from Savona to Ceva (THIS any freeway fan wouldn't like to miss: a 40km sequence of tunnels, viaducts and cuts. Originally this was a 3-lane single carriageway freeways, with center lane reserved for overpass only. They then built a second carriageway that intersects over/under the old one many times, so you have traffic flowing in the "wrong" direction. There is even one of the few helical road ascents of note here: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...54932&t=h&z=15)

- A32 from Fréjus tunnel exit to Susa (completed only in 2005, it is another beautiful tunnel approach. More picturesque than the A5, but less dramatic with more greenery instead of white-covered peaks).

- A22 from Bolzano to Austria border line (running through a narrow valley, this sector gives interesting views of the "lower Alps" mountains on the approach to the Brennero pass, the lowest of all Alpine passes).
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 03:46 PM   #1758
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A12 runs from Genoa to Cecina (Near Livorno) and from Civitavecchia to Fiumicino (Rome's airport). I think you mean A22.
Anyway, for me, of the 993.6 km of autostrade I clinched, I prefer all the A10. The continuation of French A8 has no shoulder, but it is a continuous sequence of tunnels and bridges with sea in the background along all it's 157 kilometers.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 08:12 PM   #1759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
This would be better:
Enter the closed system at Florence North, then go to A1 direction Rome for exit to A11, then A12, A15 and back to A1 and exit at Calenzano-Sesto Fiorentino.
That would be 400 kilometers and a few €urocents of toll! (€0.60 if you drive a bus, don't know a car...)
I'd choose a route with at least one rest area inbetween, so you have an excuse for driving so long.

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Brennero pass, the lowest of all Alpine passes
With 1,370 m, Brennero certainly isn't the lowest Alpine pass. For example, in Slovenian Alps there's just one road pass higher than that (if we don't count old Italian mulattiera's, which go up to 1,803 m).
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 08:21 PM   #1760
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I'd choose a route with at least one rest area inbetween, so you have an excuse for driving so long.

With 1,370 m, Brennero certainly isn't the lowest Alpine pass. For example, in Slovenian Alps there's just one road pass higher than that (if we don't count old Italian mulattiera's, which go up to 1,803 m).
Sorry, I meant Italian Alps pass.
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