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Old August 6th, 2010, 02:10 PM   #1781
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I said an alpine pass for us is what allows traffic, people, goods to cross the alps.

Stelvio is surely a pass between Lombary and Trentino, but does not allow to cross the Alps.
There is no definition of what means "crossing the Alps". The Simplon Pass links the Adriatic with the Mediterranean (near Marseille) watersheds, the Lötschberg the Mediterranean-Marseille and North sea watersheds. What is the "real" transalpine pass?
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Old August 6th, 2010, 05:25 PM   #1782
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what this has to do with what I said?

I said an alpine pass for us is what allows traffic, people, goods to cross the alps.

Stelvio is surely a pass between Lombary and Trentino, but does not allow to cross the Alps

I am not saying there are no other passes except the ones between the two sides of the mountain range, just that the main passes (ie in our case the alpine passes) are the ones that allow to cross the same mountain range

And again - apart of the definition of pass or saddle - that is the common sense everyone uses about this concept
I've never heard something like that. By this logic, there's no Alpine pass in Slovenia. To be honest, I don't pay attention to whether I'm crossing the main Alpine divide or a local one. At Brennero I wasn't really aware of that. But I think we're getting OT.
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Old August 6th, 2010, 11:48 PM   #1783
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- A22 from Bolzano to Austria border line (running through a narrow valley, this sector gives interesting views of the "lower Alps" mountains on the approach to the Brennero pass, the lowest of all Alpine passes).
Well. let me say that slightly to the south, just north of Trento, the sight is quite impressive, especially in the winter. You drive in the shade of a frozen valley, through dormant vineyards and you can still see snowy highlands awash in bright sunlight.

it's...nice. You can actually spot the lofty villages.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 09:16 PM   #1784
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the usual impressive works to rebuild A3, many thanks to GiuWay

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Qualche foto dal Macrolotto 2 Padula - Lauria Nord


Scatti vari tra Padula e Lagonegro Nord
























Area del flesso in prossimità dello svincolo di Lagonegro Nord. Ho evidenziato in verde la parte ammodernata che confluisce in quella non ammodernata, in rosso.






Nuovo tratto in viadotto tra Lagonegro Nord e Lagonegro Sud. Da notare la differenza tra il nuovo e il vecchio viadotto







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Old August 19th, 2010, 10:25 AM   #1785
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the usual impressive works to rebuild A3, many thanks to GiuWay
Thanks!

These pictures remind me that driving is always more funny south of the Alps
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Old August 19th, 2010, 11:36 AM   #1786
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The Italian A3 is very interesting. I think it's very good example of a situation where it would've been better to built a good alignment from the start. Now they're spending maybe 3 times more money (indexed for inflation) on it.

It looks like improving A3 is basically building the entire Autostrada again on a new alignment.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 11:56 AM   #1787
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The Italian A3 is very interesting. I think it's very good example of a situation where it would've been better to built a good alignment from the start. Now they're spending maybe 3 times more money (indexed for inflation) on it.

It looks like improving A3 is basically building the entire Autostrada again on a new alignment.
The A3 has a particular history. Once the main axes of the Italian highway network were completed, a connection to the south was missing. There was disagreement about whether to build a "coastal" highway on the Tyrrhenian Sea (West) or on the Ionian Sea (East), like they did with the A14, for instance, following existing old roads a a few or some km inland.

This leaded to bitter arguments in the late 60's about the ideal alignment, particular in Calabria and Basilicata. It was agreed that a highway from Napoli would cut distances bypassing the rugged coast of Campania, providing a much-needed connection to inland areas and, later on, a fast connection through Basilicata.

However, in Calabria there was disagreement. From Lauria the highways could either follow the Tyrrhenian Sea or the Ionian Sea. A connection on the East would be far shorter than through east, but would leave many important cities cut from a reliable connection and would be more expensive as the terrain in the east Calabrian coast is far more flat and appropriate to highway construction.

The final solution was quite "unique": the highway alignment would cut over the mountains ridges separating the two coasts, "superestrade" would be built to connect cities like Catanzaro to the network, and the result was a highway that took the most improbable alignment, cutting through very geological challenging areas, high mountains (in the Polino National Park the highway go as high as 1.380m, a record for areas outside the Alps approaches in Bardonecchia and Aosta I think - need to check the latter part) and a lot of curves and twists.

With the costs of this option, it would have been possible to build TWO coastal highways and please everyone.

Nonetheless, I like the A3 very much. It is one of the most beautiful highways in Europe, particular the stretches in the Polino National Park and the from Pizzo to Villa San Giovanni.

The realignments are not that severe and expressive. Usually it comprises a more straight-forward route with tunnels instead of "S" sequences of cuttings in mountains. But these "S" curves were/are notoriously dangerous. The most challenging part is widening: the original A3 was planned with 2+2 3,50m wide lanes, no shoulder, and junctions with very steep ramps and short acceleration lanes - so you figure it out.

In any case, the highway did push some economic development in the higher areas of Calabria, once isolated and reachable only by narrow 2-lane roads zig-zagging through the mountains. The capital of Province of Cosenza was the most benefited city.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 04:52 PM   #1788
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However, in Calabria there was disagreement. From Lauria the highways could either follow the Tyrrhenian Sea or the Ionian Sea. A connection on the East would be far shorter than through east, but would leave many important cities cut from a reliable connection and would be more expensive as the terrain in the east Calabrian coast is far more flat and appropriate to highway construction.

The final solution was quite "unique": the highway alignment would cut over the mountains ridges separating the two coasts, "superestrade" would be built to connect cities like Catanzaro to the network, and the result was a highway that took the most improbable alignment. With the costs of this option, it would have been possible to build TWO coastal highways and please everyone.
Fascinating story that was new to me. There must be a typo somewhere in the first paragraph. Presume that you wanted to say that a westerly connection with shorter, but that a westerly connection would have left important cities apart and would be more expensive?

My feeling would indeed be that the route from Salerno to Lauria is the more sensible option as a means to provide access to regions and as a connector to the rest of Italy (a connection with the A1 sounds better than one with the A14). From Lauria, there is only one option to go South, which is through the Pollino. But crossing that mountain ridge was inevitable only, as there runs a coast-to-coast mountain ridge in that area. From the other side of the mountain, it might indeed have made sense to stick to the Ionian coast, with superstrada connections to towns like Cosenza, Catanzaro, etc. All important cities are then served by a highway that is easier to drive and cheaper to construct.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 08:36 PM   #1789
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It looks like improving A3 is basically building the entire Autostrada again on a new alignment.
It is

But to be honest the original A3 was a marvel for its time: it is probably the most difficult highway built to that day, with a sheer amount of tunnels and bridges. Some of them are among the highest of europe, 2 are 250 meters tall...just 20 meters less than Millau

It has been though a stupid decision to remake "in situ" the highway...I would have made a completely different one, maybe on the tyrrhenian or ionian sea leaving the old one for local traffic. It would have probably even costed less (economically) but it would have been much more difficult politically

In the 70' everyone wanted the highway, now nobody wants it
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Old August 19th, 2010, 09:15 PM   #1790
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From this article we learn the new A3 will require to build completely anew 48 natural tunnels, 17 artificial and 127 bridges ()

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A3, Salerno-Reggio Calabria: è disinformazione?
L'Anas risponde al blog del Sole24ore e scatta il botta e risposta


L'autostrada A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria è di nuovo al centro di aspre polemiche. Stavolta è la corretta informazione sul reale stato di avanzamento dei lavori ad essere oggetto di replica e controreplica. Due giorni fa il giornalista Maurizio Caprino ha scritto sul blog del quotidiano "Il Sole24ore" una serie di affermazioni "errate" a cui l'Anas, tramite il Direttore Relazioni esterne e Rapporti istituzionali Giuseppe Scanni, ha subito risposto. All'articolo che parlava di un numero di cantieri pari a quello del 2009 e quindi di eguali potenziali disagi, il gestore ha replicato fornendo i chiarimenti richiesti in seguito a quelle "considerazioni sicuramente non aggiornate e pretestuose".

QUANTI KM ULTIMATI?
Rispetto al dato dei km aperti al traffico che Caprino aveva citato riferendosi al comunicato stampa del primo luglio, l'Anas informa che nello stesso mese (ovvero in preparazione dell'esodo estivo) sono stati resi fruibili sull’autostrada A3 Salerno-Reggio Calabria ulteriori 16 km di nuova carreggiata. "Anche un giornalista disattento leggendo semplicemente il sito, o i comunicati emessi, oppure la sintesi della conferenza stampa pre-esodo, organizzata dall’Anas il 29 luglio, avrebbe potuto esserne edotto", è la dura risposta di Scanni, che prosegue elencando nel dettaglio i tratti riaperti al traffico a luglio 2010 e ribadendo che l'impegno dell'Anas è quello di completare tutti i lavori in corso entro il 2013.

ESTATE 2010: UNA DIFFERENZA EVIDENTE RISPETTO AL PASSATO
La differenza rispetto agli anni precedenti secondo l'Anas si nota. Soprattutto nel tratto campano dell’autostrada dove sono giunti a conclusione i lavori sui primi 108 km della A3, che corrispondono al tratto cha va da Salerno a Padula. Un tratto caratterizzato da 35 viadotti, 15 svincoli e 12 gallerie, tutte dotate dei più sofisticati impianti tecnologici di illuminazione, di aerazione e di sicurezza. In questo tratto le curve cieche, i tratti stretti e tortuosi privi di corsia e di aree di emergenza, e le pendenze eccessive, che caratterizzavano il vecchio tracciato, "sono ormai un lontano ricordo", recita una nota.

IL PIANO ESODO 2010
Per quanto riguarda il numero degli addetti Anas, che il giornalista indicava pari a quello del 2009, ovvero a 330, l'Anas sostiene che sì il totale del personale sulla A3, che non comprende le altre amministrazioni, è rimasto lo stesso con 330 unità, ma che sono stati potenziati i servizi di assistenza agli utenti, con presidi di soccorso meccanico, sanitario, Vigili del Fuoco, volontari della Protezione Civile. In particolare, sulla A3 operano (oltre ai 330 addetti) 85 mezzi operativi, 20 presidi per gli interventi di assistenza agli utenti, lungo il percorso, due presidi fissi antincendio, rispettivamente all’interno dei macrolotti 2 (tra Padula e Lauria) e 4b (tra Altilia e Falerna), ai quali in caso di necessità se ne potranno aggiungere altri due, nei macrolotti 2 (tra Padula e Lagonegro Nord) e 5 (tra Palmi e Bagnara), 9 nuclei di manutenzione, lungo l’asse autostradale, in grado di intervenire in tempo reale, 3 postazioni di Infopoint posizionati nelle aree di servizio di Sala Consilina Ovest, Cosenza Ovest e Lamezia Ovest in direzione sud.

LA RISPOSTA DI MAURIZIO CAPRINO
Prendendo atto che l'Anas "smentisce il proprio comunicato del 7 settembre 2009", in cui - dice il giornalista - ha scritto di "396 addetti Anas", evidentemente in modo ottimistico, Caprino ha chiesto scusa per l'errore, ma non ha accettato le accuse di scorrettezza: "Nell'articolo ho dato comunque atto che 25 km sarebbero stati completati entro l'anno, come scritto nel comunicato (peraltro, perché non specificare che metà di quei 25 km sarebbe stata aperta dopo pochi giorni anziché dopo sei mesi?). Le polemiche sul punto (non solo mie, peraltro) arriveranno comunque a termine, in un modo o nell'altro, nel 2013. A riprova dell'assenza di scorrettezza, il giornalista dice di aver scritto che invece il numero di postazioni di assistenza non è raffrontabile (a proposito, è possibile ora fare un raffronto?) e di aver sempre dato sull'Anas notizie sia positive sia negative.

OLTRE I NUMERI, LE DIFFICOLTA' DI UN'AUSTRADA COMPLICATA
Alla replica di Caprino è seguita la controreplica di Scanni, che lo ha accusato di aver confuso i dati ancora una volta, invitandolo quindi ad andare a cercare tutti i comunicati stampa relativi all’esodo 2009, "in cui si parla sempre e unicamente di 330 addetti. L'impegno profuso fino a oggi dall’Anas per la gestione e soprattutto per adeguare questa fondamentale via di comunicazione alle moderne esigenze della viabilità e agli standard di sicurezza europei è - scrive Scanni - davvero enorme. Stiamo costruendo una nuova autostrada su un tracciato di montagna, unica nel suo genere, caratterizzata da un andamento altimetrico molto accentuato. Alla fine dei lavori, saranno realizzate complessivamente ex novo 48 gallerie naturali, 17 gallerie artificiali e ben 127 viadotti. Si tratta di un numero davvero straordinario".

Autore: Eleonora Lilli

fonte: http://www.omniauto.it/magazine/1319...isinformazione
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Old August 21st, 2010, 12:20 AM   #1791
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The capital of Calabria, Cosenza, was the most benefited city.
Everything you said is right but... the capital city of Calabria is Catanzaro, not Cosenza...
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Old August 21st, 2010, 12:33 AM   #1792
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Everything you said is right but... the capital city of Calabria is Catanzaro, not Cosenza...
Sorry, I was editing the post because I was writing about the individual provinces, decided to cut the length and it came with this awful mistake. I'll edit my post.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 04:13 AM   #1793
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Because of the financial crisis there will be from tomorrow:

  1. + € 1 on toll gates linked with some autostrade and RA managed by ANAS:

The administrative courts have suspended since August 4, 2010 these increases because the toll can't be a tax but a payment for a service.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 11:20 AM   #1794
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It looks like improving A3 is basically building the entire Autostrada again on a new alignment.
They are also improving the A1 Bologna-Florence by building again the Autostrada .

@ Spinoza, why on the mapping clinched highways project you have two lists??? You should made only one list regardless if you was the driver or a passenger (All mine are as passenger, as I can't drive yet. Next year will be ).
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 11:26 AM   #1795
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@ Spinoza, why on the mapping clinched highways project you have two lists??? You should made only one list regardless if you was the driver or a passenger.
Well, why? I mean, I like to keep track of the highways I personally drove, but I don't want to forget the others where I was only a passenger. I think of the former as "higher degree clinched highways" with respect to the latter.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 12:38 PM   #1796
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They are also improving the A1 Bologna-Florence by building again the Autostrada .
Not exactly. The "Variante di Valico" is a different type of intervention than the A3 project.

First and foremost, it is far shorter.

Then, they are not replacing the old highway (save for a few stretches) with a new one, but indeed building new lanes to expand capacity.

In some sectors, old lanes (current) will be used only in one direction, new lanes in other. In other sectors, drivers will be able to choose which alignment (new or old) they want to drive through.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 01:16 PM   #1797
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So it will be like 2 parallel motorways

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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Well, why? I mean, I like to keep track of the highways I personally drove, but I don't want to forget the others where I was only a passenger. I think of the former as "higher degree clinched highways" with respect to the latter.
But you could make one with all highways clinched by you, so that would be the real distance clinched by you. And until you came, I was the leader in Italy (But with only 993.6 km...)
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 01:27 PM   #1798
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But you could make one with all highways clinched by you, so that would be the real distance clinched by you.
I did, and that is spinoza. spinoza_passenger is spinoza+the highways clinched as a passenger.

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And until you came, I was the leader in Italy (But with only 993.6 km...)
Sorry about that... but I live in Italy and drive a lot
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 01:36 PM   #1799
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I guess I shouldn't brag about my 3 km Italian Autostrada clinched

I've driven only 114 km in Italy; from the Swiss border near Chiavenna via Lecco and Como to the Swiss border at Chiasso, including 3 km of A9.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 02:44 PM   #1800
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Sorry about that... but I live in Italy and drive a lot
When Spain enters, I will be the leader by far .
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