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Old August 22nd, 2010, 04:07 PM   #1801
ChrisZwolle
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Question:

Autostrada dei Laghi (A8/A9) is often cited as the first motorway in the world. However, at the time of opening (1924), it had just one carriageway with two lanes, thus it wouldn't comply with contemporary motorway standards. When was the second carriageway built? I can't find that. I'm also interested when A8 was widened to 2x3 and 2x4 lanes.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 04:22 PM   #1802
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Many claims records for themselves (we built it first, we have the steepest road, we...), but I would say that modern motorways have been invented merging different ideas: Autolaghi was built expressly for motorized private touristic traffic (it is not an existing and widened road build for horse wagons), maybe the Germans invented the double carriageway, someone other invented grade-separated interchanges, etc.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 09:54 PM   #1803
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Question:

Autostrada dei Laghi (A8/A9) is often cited as the first motorway in the world. However, at the time of opening (1924), it had just one carriageway with two lanes, thus it wouldn't comply with contemporary motorway standards. When was the second carriageway built? I can't find that. I'm also interested when A8 was widened to 2x3 and 2x4 lanes.
From what I've found, A8 was widened to:

-2x4 from Milan to Lainate
-2x3 from Lainate to Gallarate

in 1999.

Those development were meant to link better Malpensa Airport.



For the other sections I do not know.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 10:03 PM   #1804
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A8 will be widened to 2x5 lanes by the way... from Lainate to Arese, to handle the widening of A9 Como - Lainate to 2x3 lanes. Works to be completed in 2012.
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Old August 23rd, 2010, 12:37 AM   #1805
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From the A8/A50 interchange to the interchange A8/A9 (and from 2x2 to 2x3 from this latter interchange to Como Sud exit).
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Old August 24th, 2010, 04:17 PM   #1806
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A pic of the pretty impressive interchange between A8 - "Autolaghi" at the barrier of Terrazzano and the A50 - Tangenziale Ovest of Milano ('Western Bypass'):


http://www.aviazionecivile.com/vb/sh...18#post1058818
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Old August 24th, 2010, 07:21 PM   #1807
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Yeah, it is a pity that Milano freeways operate in an open-system fashion.

Few km Southeastward this road crosses A4 (Torino-Venezia), when they've built one of the most odd interchange-toll plaza combinations in Italy (notice the double swap of A50 lanes so only traffic to/from the closed-system sector from Torino passes through the toll plaza:


(C) Google Street View captured by me.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 10:07 PM   #1808
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Quote:
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Yeah, it is a pity that Milano freeways operate in an open-system fashion.
Is it? Imagine the jams that would result from a closed system. Plus the space constraints of implementing toll gates in already complicated exits like Cormano and Viale Zara.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 10:17 PM   #1809
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Milan would need C/D roads, if it wanted to have a closed toll system.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 11:16 PM   #1810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Is it? Imagine the jams that would result from a closed system. Plus the space constraints of implementing toll gates in already complicated exits like Cormano and Viale Zara.
Milan should learn from Bologna: Bologna tangenziale is separated from the highways but on the same path. So if you come from A14 or A1 or A13, you can either choose to continue on another motorway without intermediate toll booths, or enter the free tangenziale to get to the city...

But Bologna tangenziale is only 15km long, while Milan's is waaay longer...
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Old August 24th, 2010, 11:25 PM   #1811
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Bologna a4/tangenziale has been a nightmare for a lot of drivers during so many years, and today, with the dynamic 3rd lane the problem is still not solved totally, even if by now it is working! I wouldn't take it as an example.

Milan needs an external ring of bypasses, in order to keep a bug part of the traffic far from the actual ring of "tangenziali" and use it for local traffic.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 12:18 AM   #1812
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Bologna a4/tangenziale has been a nightmare for a lot of drivers during so many years, and today, with the dynamic 3rd lane the problem is still not solved totally, even if by now it is working! I wouldn't take it as an example.
I knew someone was gonna say that!

You're right, in fact as you know there are plans to coalesce the current tangenziale and urban section of A14 into a new 4+4 lane tangenziale, and build a "Passante Nord" reserved for A14.
The problem you were referring to is that the urban section of A14 is 2+2 lane, while A14 on the east side is 3+3 and A1 on the other side is 4+4... that section of A14 is a bottleneck and therefore they upgraded it with dynamic 3rd lane (a solution I hate, btw).

However, even if they build the Passante Nord, tangenziale and autostrada will remain fully independent as they are today, which I think is the winning idea.

That's the basic idea I was thinking about. Milano shoud adopt something like that.
You idea of "external bypasses" is good, but just as long as they intercept only the autostrade traffic and not the tangenziale one.

Last edited by g.spinoza; August 25th, 2010 at 12:36 AM.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 12:25 AM   #1813
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There is no way you can widen the A4 through Milano without a large-scale demolition of buildings. Even the widening of the shoulders by 1 meter or so on each side cost € 65 million for 9 kilometers to implement shoulder running (corsia dinamica).
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Old August 25th, 2010, 12:36 AM   #1814
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True.
Some parts of the "Tangenziale Nord", the A52, and the urban section of the A4 are so close to the buildings, you can see people's living rooms.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 03:08 PM   #1815
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Works on the A3:

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Old August 25th, 2010, 03:26 PM   #1816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I knew someone was gonna say that!

You're right, in fact as you know there are plans to coalesce the current tangenziale and urban section of A14 into a new 4+4 lane tangenziale, and build a "Passante Nord" reserved for A14.
The problem you were referring to is that the urban section of A14 is 2+2 lane, while A14 on the east side is 3+3 and A1 on the other side is 4+4... that section of A14 is a bottleneck and therefore they upgraded it with dynamic 3rd lane (a solution I hate, btw).

However, even if they build the Passante Nord, tangenziale and autostrada will remain fully independent as they are today, which I think is the winning idea.

That's the basic idea I was thinking about. Milano shoud adopt something like that.
You idea of "external bypasses" is good, but just as long as they intercept only the autostrade traffic and not the tangenziale one.
I agree with you about creating two separate systems (one for long range traffic and one for local traffic). What I disagree is to make them parallel (as it happens in Bologna).

Milan should reserve to local traffic the actual "tangenziali" and the actual urban stretch of A4 and build new roads for long range traffic.

TEM (Tangenziale Est Esterna) is one of them: if from Melegnano you want to bypass Milan going North or East you can take it.
Pedemontana will do the same for traffic coming from East and going towards North (although I don't like the common stretch with ss335).
What we need now is a motorway connecting Melegnano to Boffalora (where the Boffalora - MXP motorway begins), in order to intercept traffi coming from south and going towards North or West.

When we will have all of them completed the big problem will be only one: goin from West to Est (and viceversa) without driving on the urban stretch of the A4 or the Taangenziale Nord (rho - monza).
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Old August 25th, 2010, 03:34 PM   #1817
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Milan should reserve to local traffic the actual "tangenziali" and the actual urban stretch of A4 and build new roads for long range traffic.
The problem is any new road will be significantly longer than the A4. It must be very attractive to use, for drivers to accept the longer distance. They have this problem a lot in the United States where beltways are barely used by through traffic, since they're twice as long and just as congested as the route through the city.

The A4 is a very straight Autostrada. Long-distance traffic can already use the alternative A21 from Torino via Piacenza to Brescia. A northern bypass could relieve the A4 from regional traffic and international traffic from Switzerland to the great lakes and Venezia. For example, if it would run from Como to the Bergamo region.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 03:56 PM   #1818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The problem is any new road will be significantly longer than the A4. It must be very attractive to use, for drivers to accept the longer distance
One solution could be building a new stretch from the A4 to the intersection of the future Pedemontana Lombarda with current SS35:


so that the east part of the Pedemontana would become the new part of A4.

Last edited by g.spinoza; August 25th, 2010 at 04:19 PM.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 05:43 PM   #1819
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The Pedemontana is a route straight through a rather urban area. I don't see much difference between using the current A4 and the Pedemontana as the main east-west artery. Except of course that the Pedemontana will divert some traffic from the A4, which is good news for the A4 in itself.

The problem of the A4 is that it is the only significant east-west connector through an urban region with a few million inhabitants (Milan/Monza in itself, but also the wider region including Varese, Bergamo and Brescia). The bulk of the traffic is actually regional or is long-distance traffic originating from Milan. For that reason, I do not see much merit in a Como - Bergamo connector. The approach chosen of straight east-west routes that share the east-west traffic burden, such as the BreBeMi and the Pedemontana, should do a much better job to take traffic from the A4 than a larger bypass would.

One of the good things about the A4 through Milan is that it actually has very few interchanges. The interchanges take very little impact on traffic jams. For that reason, I do not think that a Bologna-type c/d road will add a lot. Just add lanes to the A4; I don't care if they have to demolish a lot of houses in one of the ugliest parts of Milan.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 06:03 PM   #1820
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Quote:
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The Pedemontana is a route straight through a rather urban area. I don't see much difference between using the current A4 and the Pedemontana as the main east-west artery.
Well, there is a lot of difference if you use the urban section of A4 EXCLUSIVELY as tangenziale and the Pedemontana as A4 replacement. In this way you keep local and long distance traffic separated, much like Passante di Mestre and Tangenziale di Mestre.
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