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Old August 25th, 2010, 06:09 PM   #1821
ChrisZwolle
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I rather think it's the other way around. A4 for through traffic and the Pedemonta for regional traffic. As Pino said, A4 doesn't have a lot of exits towards Milano (only 2 to be exact), so it's better suited for through traffic.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 06:33 PM   #1822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I rather think it's the other way around. A4 for through traffic and the Pedemonta for regional traffic.
Pedemontana is way too far from the city of Milan to be a tangenziale. Nobody in Milan will reach that far.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 06:50 PM   #1823
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Not Milano no, but there is an extensive suburban area north of Milano, that stretches from Milano to Como and from Gallarate to Lecco. They don't have to use the A8-A4-SS36 route anymore, but can use the Pedemonta. It would be even better if A52 was extended to A8.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 07:01 PM   #1824
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Of course, that's the primary goal of Pedemontana. Previously I was referring to the fact that Milan's system of tangenziali is shared with long distance traffic (and that's bad), so one idea to separate traffic in northern Milan is use A4 as local tangenziale and Pedemontana (extendend westward to the A4) as long distance Milan bypass.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 07:20 PM   #1825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
As Pino said, A4 doesn't have a lot of exits towards Milano (only 2 to be exact)
Looks like you can also enter and exit the A4 through this rest area.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 07:22 PM   #1826
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Quote:
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Looks like you can also enter and exit the A4 through this rest area.
You can't. They are rebuilding that rest area. Look at Google Street View: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...2,90.1,,1,7.15
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Old August 25th, 2010, 07:32 PM   #1827
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Originally Posted by TohrAlkimista View Post
Works on the A3:

Hmmm, this is taking really slooow.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 07:42 PM   #1828
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You can't. They are rebuilding that rest area. Look at Google Street View: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...2,90.1,,1,7.15
How old is that rest area? I never stopped there.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 07:44 PM   #1829
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Eeheh. Imagine rebuilding a 440km motorway, in a harsh mountain environment, almost from scratch...
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Old August 25th, 2010, 07:51 PM   #1830
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The Italian A3 has 4 bridges amongst the list of 500 tallest bridges in the World, 3 among the 25 tallest. It transpose three times one of the most challenging mountain ridges in Europe (nor for height, but geological complexity and seismic activity). It's been reconstructed without being closed to traffic (except for a few weeks in the last years, they never closed traffic, instead channeled it to 1 carriageway only). Some of its viaducts are having their decks (but not the structure) enlarged, others were replaced by new ones and have been demolished.

It is a quite hard job in that highway to widen it and realign it.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 08:18 PM   #1831
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Eeheh. Imagine rebuilding a 440km motorway, in a harsh mountain environment, almost from scratch...
Actually I was on that section in 2007 and 2009 and looking at this year picture, works are going much too slow. It is a difficult section, that is true, but it is still not so overwhelmingly difficult.

I'm talking about section close to Reggio di Calabria, this particular viaduct is the highest there, Bagnara.

Last edited by keber; August 25th, 2010 at 08:26 PM.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 11:37 PM   #1832
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Not Milano no, but there is an extensive suburban area north of Milano, that stretches from Milano to Como and from Gallarate to Lecco. They don't have to use the A8-A4-SS36 route anymore, but can use the Pedemonta. It would be even better if A52 was extended to A8.
Funny how a person living up north and which - admitedly - only drove 3 km of italian autostrada knows Milan road situation/plans so well
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Old August 26th, 2010, 12:12 AM   #1833
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Quote:
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Actually I was on that section in 2007 and 2009 and looking at this year picture, works are going much too slow. It is a difficult section, that is true, but it is still not so overwhelmingly difficult.
You're probably right. What's sad, is that we Italians are getting more and more used to delays in constructions. When they say "it will be ready in 4 years" we already know that this means at least 8.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 12:14 AM   #1834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The problem is any new road will be significantly longer than the A4. It must be very attractive to use, for drivers to accept the longer distance. They have this problem a lot in the United States where beltways are barely used by through traffic, since they're twice as long and just as congested as the route through the city.

The A4 is a very straight Autostrada. Long-distance traffic can already use the alternative A21 from Torino via Piacenza to Brescia. A northern bypass could relieve the A4 from regional traffic and international traffic from Switzerland to the great lakes and Venezia. For example, if it would run from Como to the Bergamo region.
The goal of Pedemontana is not to serve traffic going East to West (or viceversa), but East to North (and viceversa) instead of let all this traffic go through the urban stretch of A4.

Pedemontana will reach both A8 and A9, and also ss336 to Malpensa Airport.
The only critical stretch, in my opinion is the one shared with ss335 (Milano-Meda). There we will see big traffic jams, despite any sort of widening.
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
The Pedemontana is a route straight through a rather urban area. I don't see much difference between using the current A4 and the Pedemontana as the main east-west artery. Except of course that the Pedemontana will divert some traffic from the A4, which is good news for the A4 in itself.

The problem of the A4 is that it is the only significant east-west connector through an urban region with a few million inhabitants (Milan/Monza in itself, but also the wider region including Varese, Bergamo and Brescia). The bulk of the traffic is actually regional or is long-distance traffic originating from Milan. For that reason, I do not see much merit in a Como - Bergamo connector. The approach chosen of straight east-west routes that share the east-west traffic burden, such as the BreBeMi and the Pedemontana, should do a much better job to take traffic from the A4 than a larger bypass would.

One of the good things about the A4 through Milan is that it actually has very few interchanges. The interchanges take very little impact on traffic jams. For that reason, I do not think that a Bologna-type c/d road will add a lot. Just add lanes to the A4; I don't care if they have to demolish a lot of houses in one of the ugliest parts of Milan.
Now you have 2 significant ways of going East to West (and vv.):
1) through the urban stretch of A4;
2) through SP 46 "Rho-Monza" and "tangenziale nord".

But the sp46 needs to be completed. By the moment it ends in two turnabouts totally congested with traffic. The goal would be to bypass those 2 turnabouts and connect the sp46 directly to the motorway that already exists around the new Fair of Milan and so, through it connect to the A8/A9 and the "tangenziale Ovest". Moreover sp46 standards in general need to be improved. And finally it's necessary to build a direct link among sp46 and "tangenziale nord". By now if you want to go from sp46 to "tangenziale nord" you have to drive on a short stretch of Milano-Meda (very congested).

In my opinion all this is necessary, but won't be enopugh to solve the problem of traffic going East to West (and vv.). We will have to project something more. A new direct route frome East to West to be dedicated to long-distance traffic. And this is the big problem.

A4 can't be widened anymore. The only thing we can do on A4 is to destroy Certosa interchange and totally rebuild it in a better way. IMHO this wouldn't solve the problem of traffic, but would help decongesting A4.

To demolish a lot of buildings around A4 in oreder to widen it is only an UTOPIA, in my opinion. It is not posible to do that. A lot of those buildings are the places where many people live! Their HOMES!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Looks like you can also enter and exit the A4 through this rest area.
You can't!

The rest area (on the north lane) is relatively new. On the southern lane that's not a rest area, but an administrative building of the society managing the "tangenziali" of Milan. There is an access to a local street passing near it, but it is restricted to authorized vehicles.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 10:12 AM   #1835
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But the sp46 needs to be completed. By the moment it ends in two turnabouts totally congested with traffic. The goal would be to bypass those 2 turnabouts and connect the sp46 directly to the motorway that already exists around the new Fair of Milan and so, through it connect to the A8/A9 and the "tangenziale Ovest". Moreover sp46 standards in general need to be improved. And finally it's necessary to build a direct link among sp46 and "tangenziale nord". By now if you want to go from sp46 to "tangenziale nord" you have to drive on a short stretch of Milano-Meda (very congested).
This seems to be a good solution. SP-46 is only 1x2 for a short section near Baranzate with two roundabouts.

However, I'd suggest a slightly altered alignment near Baranzate, because current SP-46 runs on a narrow alignment through the town. A northern alignment requires the demolition of 3 or 4 buildings, but has a straighter route, and affects less people.


I do think the SP-46 / A8 interchange may require a fly-over from Lainate towards Baranzate to streamline the flow of traffic. Also; would it be possible to widen SP-46 / A52 to 2x3 lanes? The area isn't as densely built as along the A4-corridor.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 10:22 AM   #1836
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How about the SS36 extension? There are a few intersections before you reach Milano, are there frequent traffic jams there? It may be an idea to eliminate these intersections, or make them "right-in, right-out" only, so through traffic never has to stop. The downside is you cannot cross the road anymore, but traffic could be diverted to other roads.



By the way SS36 is pretty cool along Lago di Como. Lots of tunnels, I remember that section vividly.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 10:58 AM   #1837
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There is a tunnel under construction there: http://www.statale36web.it/ and http://www.hqmonza.it/
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Old August 26th, 2010, 12:07 PM   #1838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Hmmm, this is taking really slooow.
Actually the pic could easily be outdated.
I took it from the official website of the developer of the modernisation project, Impregilo: http://www.impregilo.it/impregilo/in...mid=77&lang=en
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Old August 26th, 2010, 12:12 PM   #1839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
This seems to be a good solution. SP-46 is only 1x2 for a short section near Baranzate with two roundabouts.

However, I'd suggest a slightly altered alignment near Baranzate, because current SP-46 runs on a narrow alignment through the town. A northern alignment requires the demolition of 3 or 4 buildings, but has a straighter route, and affects less people.


I do think the SP-46 / A8 interchange may require a fly-over from Lainate towards Baranzate to streamline the flow of traffic. Also; would it be possible to widen SP-46 / A52 to 2x3 lanes? The area isn't as densely built as along the A4-corridor.
I agree aboout the alignment of the new stretch of SP46, but I didn't understand thee part concernig the fly-over from Lainate to Baranzate...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
How about the SS36 extension? There are a few intersections before you reach Milano, are there frequent traffic jams there? It may be an idea to eliminate these intersections, or make them "right-in, right-out" only, so through traffic never has to stop. The downside is you cannot cross the road anymore, but traffic could be diverted to other roads.

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/3613/ss36.jpg

By the way SS36 is pretty cool along Lago di Como. Lots of tunnels, I remember that section vividly.
I that stretch of the ss36 there is constantly a HELL of a traffic jam, because of two intersections with traffic light.
By now a tunnel is being built in order to solve the problem. Tohralkimista posted the links where you can find the project!
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Old August 26th, 2010, 12:18 PM   #1840
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I agree aboout the alignment of the new stretch of SP46, but I didn't understand thee part concernig the fly-over from Lainate to Baranzate...
The current connection from A8 to SP-46 is a tight cloverleaf loop. This reduces capacity. With a fly-over, you can have a better alignment that allows a higher speed of traffic, thus higher capacity.

It looks something like this:
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