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Old September 2nd, 2010, 10:37 PM   #1861
Coccodrillo
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When my city centre was entirely closed for one day because of the start of the Tour de Suisse cycling race I thought it would have been a mess, but actually the city was much more pleasant with cyclist and pedestrians instead of cars.
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Old September 2nd, 2010, 11:39 PM   #1862
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When my city centre was entirely closed for one day because of the start of the Tour de Suisse cycling race I thought it would have been a mess, but actually the city was much more pleasant with cyclist and pedestrians instead of cars.
People can easily adapt for once-in-a-while events. Nobody is changing their housing or transportation choices on the long-term because of a handful of dates in which traffic is disrupted (by events, weather etc.)

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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I speak just as a citizen of Bologna, a driver who does NOT live in the centre, and I am happy the way things are right now. I can go to the centre by bus ("shady bus") walk freely without fear of being run over by some businessman driving Audi in a hurry, enjoy San Pietro and the neighbourhood.
I don't run over pedestrians, but I recognize businessmen in Audis and Alfa Romeos tend to do that. That is quintessentially Italian

In any case, I don't complain. Bologna's seen massive highway works around it, like the relatively new Tangenziale, the A1 enlargement/reconstruction and so. And it has a damn good/tasteful gastronomic scene that is a perfect complement to Milano's experimentalist eateries and so.

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2- Bologna centre would be a whole big traffic jam from 8am till 8pm.
That would be cool in a certain way, at least people would be able to drive there. Soon they would be talking about massive underground parking lots like the one near the Montagnola, and maybe a "cross-town" tunnel from Via Independenza to Viale 12 Giugno.

I used to stay in Quarto Inferiore and drive downtown during the relatively brief period in which I stayed there (I came back later more times).
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Old September 2nd, 2010, 11:48 PM   #1863
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Bologna centre is still a dangerous place for pedestrians. There are buses, taxis and NCC (Car hire with driver): three of the most dangerous drivers around
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Old September 2nd, 2010, 11:53 PM   #1864
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Well, people could still walk if the ZTL didn't exist. That is my point: forcing people to walk by limiting the core medieval centers access to cars is wrong, it's and undue intervention of the "comune" in the private choice of transportation of their citizens.

Market solutions (tolls) are always better than gerrymandered schemes where some people living in one side of an avenue can park and drive their cars, but not the others living 20m across.

I still favor pedestrianized limited zones on narrow alleys or plazas, and also parking restrictions on streets (so ppl can park underground and free up space overground), but not this discriminatory views that residents of a place are entitled more rights than others.

To the extent I know, internal discrimination of access was terminated in Italy in 1861. The ZTLs are a sad point in a fortunately limited trend of considering some Italians more Italian than others in face of the Law, in the case, traffic law. It's like a parochial version of the "auto blue".

After all, "la legge è [oppure dovrebbe essere] uguale per tutti" (the Law is (or should be) equal for everyone).
Please.
Private car ownership generates enormous negative externalities affecting the quality of life of everyone, and must be discouraged at any cost in favour of public transportation. This is especially true in city centres.

Finding out there's still people who advocate market solutions for the modal split in urban centres in 2010 is rather depressing.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 12:07 AM   #1865
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Please.
Private car ownership generates enormous negative externalities affecting the quality of life of everyone, and must be discouraged at any cost in favour of public transportation.
If you discourage car too much, commercial activity will die, unless you are talking about an über-famous touristic attraction like the Piazza di Spagna or the Colosseo.

Electric cars are coming - fast - to kill the point-of-use emission/pollution problem and drastically reduce noise pollution too. So we can welcome them back in our medieval cities as much as we welcome electricity, hot water, gas pipes, Internet or cell phone coverage.

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Finding out there's still people who advocate market solutions for the modal split in urban centres in 2010 is rather depressing.
Market is amoral (not moral nor imoral), emotion-blind and self-reactive. It is immune, in large atomized and disperse user bases like drivers going through tolls, the less costly scheme to accommodate the needs of everyone to drive with the limited supply of road lanes.

I trust more the market's free hand than most Italian comuni's officers.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 12:11 AM   #1866
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Electric cars are coming - fast - to kill the point-of-use emission/pollution problem and drastically reduce noise pollution too. So we can welcome them back in our medieval cities as much as we welcome electricity, hot water, gas pipes, Internet or cell phone coverage.
The only thing that cannot be changed in cars is the space they occupy...
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 09:55 PM   #1867
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
Please.
Private car ownership generates enormous negative externalities affecting the quality of life of everyone, and must be discouraged at any cost in favour of public transportation. This is especially true in city centres.

Finding out there's still people who advocate market solutions for the modal split in urban centres in 2010 is rather depressing.
What an utter nonsense. You can look at any European city that discourages private car ownership. Every single one is a traffic mess, whether it's London, Paris or Rome. You don't stop it with "discouraging private car ownership". Private transportation is the fastest and most convenient way in 90% of the transportation universe. The only thing you will accomplish is to get 2% of the drivers out of their cars while making it worse for the 98% others. But I understand any environmentalist or urbanist considers this a huge success in their small-minded world.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 10:12 PM   #1868
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What an utter nonsense. You can look at any European city that discourages private car ownership. Every single one is a traffic mess, whether it's London, Paris or Rome.
So cities that discourage private car ownership are a traffic mess. This means that cities that DO NOT discourage private car ownership are an even worse mess.
And you like it

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You don't stop it with "discouraging private car ownership".
Ownership per se is not bad. Overusing cars IS bad.

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Private transportation is the fastest and most convenient way in 90% of the transportation universe.
For the driver. But no man is an island, you have to live in a world, you know, with other people. THIS is being small-minded, caring just for oneself.

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The only thing you will accomplish is to get 2% of the drivers out of their cars while making it worse for the 98% others.
Comer on, is it making the world worse going by bus? Or on foot? These are not instruments of the devil, you know.

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But I understand any environmentalist or urbanist considers this a huge success in their small-minded world.
It is, not just for them. I consider a success breathing in a city without having to use my inhaler every 5 minutes, or just enjoying the city centre walking, once in a while,...
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 10:22 PM   #1869
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For the driver. But no man is an island, you have to live in a world, you know, with other people. THIS is being small-minded, caring just for oneself.
John Stuart Mill once established that the vector sum of individuals pursuing their individual self-interests, with as few constraints as acceptable, produce the better societies as a whole.

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Comer on, is it making the world worse going by bus? Or on foot? These are not instruments of the devil, you know.
If the 80% of the population of Roma, Paris, Amsterdam, London, Madrid, Budapest, Zurich were to take public transportation to work, it would bankrupt the cities. European cities only can afford inefficient PT systems catering for the minority because they rip off (gas levies, parking meters, parking permits) the majority of drivers to the benefit of an entitled minority of PT users. If the drivers become few, there would be no cash to fund PT, at least none in cities organized like ours. Italian PTs are a joke in terms of farebox recovery rates: 26% in Roma, 18% in Milano, abysmal 11% in Napoli... They should shut out most of PT in those cities and give subsidies for car purchase and lower gas taxes: we, Italian taxpayers, would be better served.

Ground transportation systems are a money bleed like a ruptured pipeline. I heard that Milano's ATM doesn't recoup 8% of the costs of its celebrated tram system in fares collected.

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It is, not just for them. I consider a success breathing in a city without having to use my inhaler every 5 minutes, or just enjoying the city centre walking, once in a while,...
The electric car is coming to address such concerns once and for all. Kill pollution on point-of-use and kill noise.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 10:35 PM   #1870
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So cities that discourage private car ownership are a traffic mess. This means that cities that DO NOT discourage private car ownership are an even worse mess.
And you like it
Public transportation potential has its limits, which is often reached or nearly reached in Europe. You can maybe siphon off a few more drivers by implementing drastic measures to discourage private car usage. However, the few PT travelers you'll win do not stand up to the excessive congestion and inaccessability you will create with such measures. It's just not worth it.

Quote:
Comer on, is it making the world worse going by bus? Or on foot? These are not instruments of the devil, you know.
People should have a reasonable choice of travel mode. Especially when they are paying good money for it (drivers) instead of mooching off of the entire community (PT users). As Surburbanist pointed out, farebox recovery ratios in Europe are dramatically low. This means other people than those who use it, fund it. It's like you have to pay for your neighbors new interior.

As for air quality; it has drastically improved in the last 30 - 40 years, while private car ownership and usage has exploded in the same time. Now what does that tell you? Really, when we have electric cars, what argument will they use then?

This is not a puppet state where the government can or should decide how, when and where people should live, work and travel.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 11:03 PM   #1871
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As for air quality; it has drastically improved in the last 30 - 40 years, while private car ownership and usage has exploded in the same time. Now what does that tell you? Really, when we have electric cars, what argument will they use then?
It tells me that it's false. Air quality has not improved in towns, let alone "drastically", it is stable since more or less 15 years (when first experiments of blocking traffic arose), even if car ownership has risen. I've worked in the Regional Agency for Environmental Protection, so don't try to fool me with data that aren't true.

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This is not a puppet state where the government can or should decide how, when and where people should live, work and travel.
Such a state is not a puppet state. Is a state worried about the damages that individualism can do. I dream such a state.

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Old September 3rd, 2010, 11:10 PM   #1872
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Italian public transport isn't really a good example. Outside big cities is often bad, but not because of its being public, but because of inefficency (unintegrate fares, random timetables, trains that do not connect to each other extending travel time and reducing attractivenes, ...).

As for Switzerland a presentation I have shows that only 10% of money comes directly from road taxes, 50% coming from revenue (both passenger transport and freight trains), the rest from other taxes.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 11:24 PM   #1873
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As for Switzerland a presentation I have shows that only 10% of money comes directly from road taxes, 50% coming from revenue (both passenger transport and freight trains), the rest from other taxes.
100% of automobile costs are paid by drivers. The money every European gov't recoups in special taxes (not talking about IVA or other general taxes...) on fuel, parking and car purchase/licensing/ownership far outstrips any cost of road maintenance, accident losses, etc. etc. etc.

If not even Switzerland can design a PT system that pays for itself, no country can and therefore car mobility shall be prioritized because, at least in Western developed countries, the individual rights, not only to vote, to give a speech or to associate, but their very rights to move as they want are paramount to our society, which is, like it or not, a consumption-based society for whose long-term sustainability car ownership is central in a large scale.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 11:43 PM   #1874
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It tells me that it's false. Air quality has not improved in towns, let alone "drastically", it is stable since more or less 15 years (when first experiments of blocking traffic arose), even if car ownership has risen. I've worked in the Regional Agency for Environmental Protection, so don't try to fool me with data that aren't true.
In Los Angeles, the stage 1 smog alert was issued over 100 times per year in the 1970's. It was issues only a few times in the first decade of the 2000's. If that isn't an improvement than what is. Diesel is now ultra-low sulfur that emits a hundred time less pollution than 20 years ago. All cars have catalytic converters these days. The next step is a large-scale introduction of electric cars.

For example, in Iran, where virtually all vehicles drive on leaded fuel, 80% of the pollution comes from transportation. In Western countries, this is only 10 - 15%, where car ownership is significantly higher.

Besides that, the main pollution source from transportation is truck traffic. You won't limit those with "incentives". People will still buy all things they do today. Which trucks deliver. So it's actually very debatable if battling the car would actually improve air quality that much. As you are into these things, you probably know weather patterns are also of great influence. (That is why 90 km/h limits on the motorway during smog doesn't work either).

Not to mention all those scooters and mopeds in Italian cities. Imagine all of them as heavy trucks and you'll get the picture about the pollution they create.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 11:46 PM   #1875
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Good public transport relieve roads so it's a benefit also for those who have to use cars as they suffer less congestion. PT can never be directly profitable overall as it provides indirect savings and has to be maintained for those who can't have or drive a car.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 11:48 PM   #1876
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Good public transport relieve roads so it's a benefit also for those who have to use cars as they suffer less congestion.
True, but only to a limited potential. For example corridor studies in the Netherlands have shown the alternative of not widening a motorway, but invest hundreds of millions in public transport would reduce road traffic by 0 - 1%. Once you have an extensive public transport network (which most European cities have), the additional appeal to motorists is pretty limited.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 11:55 PM   #1877
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I don't know the Netherlands, but Milan and Italy very well. There is a great potential of shift to PT with limited expenses. I know a railway line north of Milan where traffic rised from 10.000 to 40.000 passengers only by adding new trains (from a train every 1 or 2 hours to one every 15 to 30 minutes). This is the kind of things I want, a lot of new passengers with a limited expense (just a few new and refurbished trains, no new infrastructure).
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Old September 4th, 2010, 12:10 AM   #1878
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I don't know the Netherlands, but Milan and Italy very well. There is a great potential of shift to PT with limited expenses. I know a railway line north of Milan where traffic rised from 10.000 to 40.000 passengers only by adding new trains (from a train every 1 or 2 hours to one every 15 to 30 minutes). This is the kind of things I want, a lot of new passengers with a limited expense (just a few new and refurbished trains, no new infrastructure).
Then it comes the underused "Passante Ferroviario". Integrated fares (which are kept artificially low by Signora Letizia Moratti), physically integrated stations with subways and commuter trains... and still very low trafficked stations, like Dateo or Porta Vitoria or Bovisa.

Anyway, I agree that it is good to, at least, improve the usage of current infrastructure. But I think LeNord should be sold to private investors and the money diverted to build a high-speed rail bypass of Milano and new high-speed tunnels to/from a brand new train station that could be built (undergorund) near the old fairground, but that is another issue.
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Old September 4th, 2010, 12:23 AM   #1879
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Integrated fares (which are kept artificially low by Signora Letizia Moratti)
There is no real integrate fare system in Milan like there is in Paris or Amsterdam. There are only some common abonments between bus companies, and between trains and PT in the municipality of Milan (that is only a tiny part of the aggloemration).

Letizia Moratti is the mayor of Milan. The municipality wants to maintain the urban single trip ticket to 1 €, but only in the municipality.

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physically integrated stations with subways and commuter trains
There are common stations but not a common organisation, this is the problem. In Milan's suburban train tunnel there weren't any working ticketing machine until 2009. Until a few months ago it was impossible to buy tickets for suburban trains in a central station like Châtelet in Paris or Zuid in Amsterdam.

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But I think LeNord should be sold to private investors
Train operating companies in the UK are mostly private, but run under government's control.

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and the money diverted to build a high-speed rail bypass of Milano and new high-speed tunnels to/from a brand new train station that could be built
You protest against the money spent on heavily used corridors and want to spend billions on tunnels for few people? That's crazy
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Old September 4th, 2010, 11:56 AM   #1880
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Da questo Trip Report, su Malpensa-info.org: http://www.malpensa-info.org/phpBB3/...hp?f=17&t=3574


----







è A8? Sinceramente non saprei dirlo.

A8+A4 around Milan
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