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Old August 2nd, 2007, 01:06 AM   #261
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Hopefully.
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Old August 2nd, 2007, 01:25 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by JohnFlint1985 View Post
I doubt it will be twins. They already announced that the 2 towers will be different in height. Unfortunately first 1400 ft, second 1100 ft. Maybe they will change that, but for now this is it.
oop my bad sorry
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Old August 2nd, 2007, 03:28 AM   #263
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Who wants to do some massing renderings from different angles, dont all volunteer at once now!
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Old August 2nd, 2007, 04:53 AM   #264
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Who wants to do some massing renderings from different angles, dont all volunteer at once now!
ME
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Old August 8th, 2007, 10:06 PM   #265
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It's almost official. This project will be bigger than the new and old WTC.
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Old August 8th, 2007, 10:27 PM   #266
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I am nearly 100% positive that this won't be built because Bloomberg wouldn't ever let the Hotel Pennsylvania be knocked down. You guys are so caught up in this chanting 500 m, 500 m, 500 m, 500 m that you fail to realize what a great landmark you may loose. You talk about the ugly Madison square gardens and how shit it looks, yet you don't even speak about this! It's the 4th largest Hotel in Manhattan and it serves over 100,000 people a year! This tower's not going to fall.
Instead of building brand new towers, this building could be renovated for much less money
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Old August 8th, 2007, 10:32 PM   #267
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Hotel Pennsylvania is a small sacrifice in my opinion. Bloomberg is after the green. Even if it doesn't get razed, 5/400m+ towers will be getting erected in midtown, so keep on chanting.
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Old August 8th, 2007, 11:56 PM   #268
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It's almost official. This project will be bigger than the new and old WTC.
and both of them are/were absolutely big. that lets hope on a gigantic complex of towers
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Old August 8th, 2007, 11:58 PM   #269
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Any news?
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Old August 9th, 2007, 02:26 AM   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by storms991 View Post
I am nearly 100% positive that this won't be built because Bloomberg wouldn't ever let the Hotel Pennsylvania be knocked down. You guys are so caught up in this chanting 500 m, 500 m, 500 m, 500 m that you fail to realize what a great landmark you may loose. You talk about the ugly Madison square gardens and how shit it looks, yet you don't even speak about this! It's the 4th largest Hotel in Manhattan and it serves over 100,000 people a year! This tower's not going to fall.
Instead of building brand new towers, this building could be renovated for much less money
100 % positive based on what? I am almost 100 % positive that hotel penn does get knocked down. Read the articles. In it's place, who knows?
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Old August 9th, 2007, 02:43 AM   #271
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Some good reads for STORMS 991

This was posted a month ago by LloydGeorge
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Originally Posted by LLoydGeorge View Post
From The New York Times:

New Grandeur for Penn Station in Latest Plan
By CHARLES V. BAGLI
Published: July 4, 2007

It began as a proposal to restore the Beaux-Arts grandeur of the old Pennsylvania Station. It grew into a sweeping plan to transform the area around the station into a district of gleaming office towers. Now it is growing again.
In the next three weeks, two of the city’s largest developers will unveil new plans for rebuilding the station, moving Madison Square Garden, replacing the Hotel Pennsylvania, and erecting a pair of skyscrapers, one of which would be taller than the Empire State Building, over the site of the existing station.

Though the new plan is broadly similar to a proposal offered a year ago, it is different in several important ways, starting with the cost: $14 billion, double that of the original plan, a real estate executive who has seen the plan said. It is also bigger than anticipated: the entire plan, involving buildings on six adjacent blocks, would create 10 million square feet of new office space off West 33rd Street, as much as in the old World Trade Center.
The developers, Stephen M. Ross and Steven Roth, have also burnished their vision for the station, which would be renamed after Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who championed the original idea. Civic groups and the head of the City Planning Commission, Amanda M. Burden, had complained that last year’s plan treated the underground station as an afterthought, without a grand public space worthy of the country’s busiest transit hub.

The new plan would try to recapture the imposing aura of the original station inside the James A. Farley Post Office across the street, with a vast, street-level waiting room under a glass canopy that would spill sunlight onto the concourse two levels below.

In the next three weeks, the public will get its first, albeit sketchy, look at the new plan when the Spitzer administration takes the first step in an environmental review of the project’s potential impact on the neighborhood.

“It’s a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and I think the stars are aligned to do this,” said Patrick J. Foye, co-chairman of the Empire State Development Corporation, the state authority overseeing the project.
It is far from a done deal.

Despite progress on the designs and numerous meetings with officials from Amtrak, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, New Jersey Transit, the Long Island Rail Road and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, the developers do not have a definitive agreement with the various transportation agencies.

The developers also have yet to hammer out a final deal with the owners of Madison Square Garden, Cablevision and the Dolan family , to move the Garden to the western part of the Farley building, which would be the arena’s fifth home in 132 years. The two sides have a nonbinding agreement.

More important, the estimated cost of renovating the station has also doubled, to $2 billion, and no one knows who will pay. Compounding the problem, another state project, the expansion of the nearby Jacob K. Javits Convention Center, has also doubled in cost, to $4 billion. And state officials have warned that the proposed renovations of the Farley building may not qualify for $225 million in federal tax credits they want.

Proponents contend that the Moynihan Station project has an important benefit that justifies using public dollars: a new transportation hub that would form a monumental gateway to the city. But civic groups have also argued that the developers should shoulder a substantial portion of the cost of renovating the station because it would make their property far more valuable.
Mr. Roth, the chairman of Vornado Realty Trust, and Mr. Ross, chief executive of the Related Companies, would build 5.5 million square feet of office and retail space on the current site of Madison Square Garden, on Eighth Avenue between 31st and 33rd Streets. If it were approved, they would also build a two million-square-foot tower at the southwest corner of Seventh Avenue and 34th Street, using development rights from the post office building.

In addition, Mr. Roth’s company plans to demolish the Hotel Pennsylvania, across Seventh Avenue from Madison Square Garden, to make way for a 2.5 million-square-foot building. Real estate executives and urban planners say that if the plan reaches fruition, Vornado, which already owns about seven million square feet in the neighborhood, will dominate one district like no other landlord in the city.

“Given the magnitude of the project and the wealth which could be created for the developers,” Mr. Foye said, “we expect them to make a significant contribution to the cost of the train station.”

So far, the developers have said only that government should pay for the station.

“The project,” said Vishaan Chakrabarti, a vice president of Related, “will unlock billions of dollars in tax revenues, remake the dismal area surrounding Pennsylvania Station” and catalyze development on the Far West Side.

That is a sentiment shared by the Bloomberg administration as well as business and civic groups like the Partnership for New York City and the Regional Plan Association. But Kent L. Barwick, president of the Municipal Art Society, a civic group that has met with the developers, said that it was “inappropriate” for the state to put the project on the fast track and begin an environmental review before “the design, the financing and all the implications are on the table.”


Senator Moynihan first suggested in 1992 that the Farley post office, which stretches from Eighth to Ninth Avenue opposite the Garden, could be turned into a grand train station to help alleviate congestion at Penn Station in a gesture of civic redemption for the much-lamented demolition of the original station in the 1960s.

The state ultimately agreed to buy the Beaux-Arts post office, though the Postal Service continues to operate the historic stamp windows behind the colonnade on Eighth Avenue. In 2005, the state selected Related and Vornado to develop the project. Since the tracks beneath Madison Square Garden extend below the post office, the original plan was to convert the landmark building into a $900 million train station with a monumental train room and large stores like Kmart.

But the developers always had bigger things in mind. They hoped to persuade Cablevision, which owns the Garden, to sell its development rights and move to a new arena, which would allow for the renovation of Penn Station and enable them to build a huge new office complex.

Last December, the plan hit a roadblock when the State Assembly, which is controlled by Democrats, refused to approve the Farley portion of the project, snubbing the outgoing Republican governor, George E. Pataki.

Since then, the Spitzer and the Bloomberg administrations have been working with the developers. The latest plan calls for a new, 20,000-seat arena to be built in the western two-thirds of the Farley building. The glass-covered arena would rise as much as 35 feet above the roof of the post office, with a 10-foot setback. Signs advertising events at the Garden would be mounted on kiosks, rather than plastered on the building as the Garden owners originally suggested.

One source of continuing dispute on the station has been the Garden’s insistence that the colonnade on Eighth Avenue serve as the entrance to the arena, with basketball and hockey fans buying tickets at the stamp windows, walking around the interior, past a large train room, into the arena. Commuters using New Jersey Transit or Long Island Rail Road would enter the building through separate, street-level entrances.

The Garden’s owners are also proposing to replace interior brick walls with glass, allowing visitors to see the interior of the arena. But these proposals have come under fire from preservationists who worry that the Garden will overwhelm the Farley building, much as the Garden replaced Penn Station more than 40 years ago.

“We’re looking for a well-designed, separate and distinct train station,” said Peg Breen, president of the New York Landmarks Conservancy, a private preservation group. “We do not want the Garden to swallow the station.”

Not to worry, state officials say. “This is, first and foremost, a transportation project,” Mr. Foye said. “The goal is to create something that is consistent with Senator Moynihan’s vision of a public space that can accommodate 550,000 daily commuters and still have room for growth.”

After work is done on the Farley building, the developers would move east to demolish the old Garden and allow for the renovation of Penn Station, with separate waiting rooms for Amtrak and for Long Island Rail Road passengers. New Jersey Transit would be the largest single transit tenant in the Farley building. The street-level part of the station would include two corridors running from Seventh to Eighth Avenue, several levels of stores and possibly a major department store in a 10- to 12-story base.

The developers also plan to renovate Vornado’s tower at 2 Penn Plaza and erect two skyscrapers, with one rising up to 1,400 feet, the other about 1,100 feet, according to executives who have seen the plans. On the lower levels, the towers, which would be completed in 2018, would have several 80,000-square-foot floors for a financial institution interested in a trading complex.

The developers are also talking to city officials about an alternative plan that would permit them to transfer development rights to nearby properties so that the skyscrapers would not have to be so tall. Under this scheme, the developers would also be able to start construction of other office buildings before the new arena is completed.

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Old August 9th, 2007, 02:49 AM   #272
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This is an article from a few weeks back posted by Nyguy @ SSP.com

I would also like to add that I take all development idea's concerning this area with a small grain of salt but one thing I'm pretty sure will happen is that Hotel Penn will get knocked down. One thing I am hopeful on that many of us in here are as well is - The start of a new era in Manhattan, one that seems very plausible and likely; the era of the supertall returning. Enjoy this article. It's New York, it doesn't stop growing. If you are concerned about older architecture being taken down for new stuff.. I suggest you check out the Ny forum. On that forum you can check out my series which covers all of Manhattan in detail. There you will see that the Island has more than it's fair share of precious pre war buildings, brownstones, town homes, art deco, neo classical, and beaux arts. They practically cover the Island.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
Looks like SOM will be designing the MSG towers...
http://archrecord.construction.com/n...ennStation.asp

SOM, Foster, and KPF to remake Penn Station

July 16, 2007
by Russell Fortmeyer

Skidmore Owings & Merrill (SOM), Foster + Partners, and Kohn Pedersen Fox (KPF) have been retained as architects for a multi-billion-dollar-project to redevelop New York City’s Pennsylvania Station district, parties close to the deal confirmed on Friday.

Bud Perrone, a spokesperson for the project’s developers, a joint venture of the Related Companies and Vornado Realty Trust, acknowledged that the three architecture firms are involved. Another source involved in the design of the project told RECORD that Foster will prepare the master plan for a site that includes the existing Penn Station, Madison Square Garden (MSG), and two office towers, One and Two Penn Plazas. This plan calls for razing MSG and capping the subterranean train station with a large glass dome.

Errol Cockfield, a spokesperson for the Empire State Development Corporation (ESDC)—the state agency involved in organizing development between private and public interests—confirmed much of the project’s scope. The redevelopment plans include SOM’s previously announced transformation of the Farley Post Office, which the ESDC purchased in March at the southwest corner of 33rd Street and 8th Avenue, into a new Moynihan Station that would augment Penn’s existing—and at-capacity—infrastructure. Cockfield says that the low-rise podium of One Penn would likely be razed, but that the tower would remain and that Two Penn would only be re-skinned. (RECORD’s offices happen to be located in Two Penn Plaza.)

Cockfield says that the ESDC has yet to assemble a timetable for making the designs public, or for the phases of development, but he did say that a scoping session would occur before summer’s end. This session will establish the amount of square footage that the development might contain and prepare rudimentary drawings for how it will be divided. “Some of this is still in flux and people want answers and there is frustration in some corners,” Cockfield says. However, other sources tell RECORD that environmental review hearings are expected to begin this fall. A draft Environmental Impact Statement was completed for the Moynihan project in 2006.

The destruction of McKim Mead & White’s original 1910 Penn Station, in 1964, is largely credited with establishing the historic preservation movement in the U.S. Charles Luckman Associates designed the replacement station, MSG, and office complex, but the public has never quite embraced them. Historian Vincent Scully once wrote that in the old Penn Station, “one entered the city like a god,” while in the new subterranean complex “one scuttles in now like a rat.”

In recent years, the site has been the subject of much speculation. A source involved in the design of the redevelopment has told RECORD that Two Penn Plaza would also be razed to allow for wholesale redevelopment of the area. Planned new structures might include 5.5-million-square-feet of retail, restaurant, hotel, and office space designed by SOM.

Additionally, for a site at the corner of 34th Street and 7th Avenue, KPF would design a 2-million-square-foot skyscraper that will be taller than the Empire State Building, located just two blocks away.

SOM’s plan to turn the Farley Post Office building—designed by McKim Mead & White and completed in 1913—into Moynihan Station could act as the front door to a relocated MSG to the west, as well as house retail space that may include a large department store. Cockfield would not confirm whether or not other architects are involved in this project, but he said that Amtrak or New Jersey Transit will likely call Moynihan home. Currently, those two rail services and the Long Island Rail Road jockey for space in overcrowded Penn underneath MSG. Six adjacent subway lines add to the congestion.

David Childs, FAIA, a partner with SOM, says that his firm is mainly focusing on the Moynihan project. “It’s going to be one of those great stories, but if we finish by 2012, we’ll be lucky,” he says. After numerous starts and stops, that project was put on hold in 2006 when state government officials, including assembly speaker Sheldon Silver, withheld approval until a plan for the entire district could be put forward for review.

Perrone, who is with Rubenstein Communications, says that there are on-going discussions between the developers and various state and local agencies, including the ESDC, the City of New York, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, the railway services, and the state government.

Separately, plans were announced last winter for the destruction of McKim Mead & White’s 1918 Pennsylvania Hotel, located at the northeast corner of 32nd Street and 7th Avenue, to make room for a hotel tower to be designed by Cesar Pelli & Associates and developed by Vornado.

That building’s demolition will leave only the Farley building as the last vestige of the celebrated architects’ legacy in the Penn Station district.
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Old August 9th, 2007, 07:13 AM   #273
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Does Hotel Pennsylvania have any conservation status in NY? It was built in 1919 after all.
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Old August 13th, 2007, 05:09 AM   #274
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any new on these towrrs??
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Old August 13th, 2007, 09:39 AM   #275
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My question exactly.
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Old August 13th, 2007, 09:07 PM   #276
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No render yet?
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Old August 13th, 2007, 10:04 PM   #277
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ive been waiting for the render too..
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Old August 13th, 2007, 10:13 PM   #278
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First it was the Drake now it's Hotel Penn.
Anyhow, I hope the new building looks great. Not that typical glass box being built all over the place.
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Old August 13th, 2007, 10:21 PM   #279
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My gym Ballys Sports is located at the Pennsylvania Hotel....the Hotel needs to go...too old and some visitors have complained of bedbugs at the hotel!!!!!!
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Old August 14th, 2007, 12:51 AM   #280
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From Cityrealty.com's 12 August 2007 edition:

New transit hub studied by Regional Plan Association 12-AUG-07

The Regional Plan Association issued a 22-page report Thursday on the proposed plans for the redevelopment of the James A. Farley Post Office Building and Madison Square Garden, both on Eighth Avenue between 31st and 33rd Streets that cautioned that several "outstanding design and function issues" must be addressed to create a "regional rail center" that can accommodate significant future growth in traffic.
The report noted that NJ Transit will be adding a new commuter rail runnel under the Hudson River, known as the Trans-Hudson Express, or THE, by 2016, that will "double the number of travelers arriving to the Penn Station complex during peak times. It also noted that "In 2013, when the LIRR's East Side Access project is completed and LIRR trains can access Grand Central Terminal, Penn Station's peak-period capacity will be opened up, making it possible for some Metro-North trains on the New Haven and Hudson Lines to access Penn Station," adding that "This connection will provide capacity for new 'through' services (including Long Island-New Jersey, Connecticut-New Jersey, and Upstate New York-Long Island), which will make Penn Station even more of a regional rail hub."

Furthermore, the report continued, "dedicated one-seat train service to John F. Kennedy and Stewart airports remains a possibility" and "The New York State Senate High-Speed Rail Task Force has developed a plan for increased rail service in the Empire Corridor between Penn Station and Upstate New York," a plan that "would more than double the number of daily trains and introduce express service."

In addition to such greatly increased transportation impacts, the report noted that "about 10 million square feet of office space is expected to be added in the immediate vicinity of the station in the next 20 years" and that "The entire Hudson Yards area (West of Eighth Avenue from 30th to 42nd Streets) will include an additional 24 million square of office space and 14,000 new dwelling units."

The planned new complex will be named after the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, "whose vision for the Farley Post Office as a grand and welcoming train station initiated the process now underway," the report stated. The plan now refers to the development of the post office building site as Moynihan West and the Madison Square Garden site as Moynihan East.

In 2005, the Venture - a joint effort by Vornado Realty Trust and Related Companies - won a request for proposals to redevelop the Farley Building and it has since been negotiating with the Garden to move its arena onto the Farley site and redevelopment its existing site with new train station facilities and two 90-story office towers as well as new retail facilities. The towers, one of which would include a 250-room hotel, are outlined in the illustration at the right.

The Venture, however, does not have exclusive rights to the development of Moynihan East, the report maintained, adding, however, that they "have a significant natural advantage due to the fact that...they have many holdings in the immediate vicinity of the complex, which would allow them to transfer development rights...should the City allow them to do so."

The report recommended the creation of a district-wide strategy for bringing construction equipment and materials into (and demolition debris and fill out of) the Far West Side that "could cause unprecedented disruption of traffic all over Midtown Manhattan and adjoining districts for a generation or longer, with enormous implications for quality of life and economic activities throughout the city."

The association expressed concern that the Madison Square Garden and retail operations of the Venture's plan "will overwhelm the train halls visually and functionally" and urged that "efforts should be made to promote the sense that this is primarily a public space."
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