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Old September 13th, 2007, 06:25 AM   #401
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Ditto Batgirl....ooops NYgirl
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Old September 13th, 2007, 02:23 PM   #402
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Hey Nyguy!! Welcome to SSC.. it's a real pleasure to have you over here, thanks for all the article coverage on ssp and we sure could use it over here as well.
Yeah, downtime at ssp gave me a chance to register here. Lots of skyscrapers to discuss...
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Old September 13th, 2007, 02:24 PM   #403
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http://www.nysun.com/article/62521

Push Is Growing for U.S. Funding of Penn Station Redo

By ELIOT BROWN
September 13, 2007

The developers involved in remaking Pennsylvania Station are pouring money into an effort to elicit federal funding for the development, retaining the services of six Washington, D.C.-based lobbying firms for the project, records show.

In the first half of 2007, developers Vornado Realty Trust and the Related Companies put about $710,000 into the advocacy efforts, according to federal lobbying filings, an amount that comes on top of more than $15,000 in campaign contributions to key legislators that could affect the funding.

The efforts underscore the important role of federal funding for the project, as both the state, which is administering the development, and the developers are eager to see the expected multibillion-dollar costs offset by another party.

The project, which envisions moving Madison Square Garden to the western end of the neighboring Farley Post Office and radically overhauling Pennsylvania Station, stands to be an extremely cost-intensive investment that would create little direct financial return but could spark billions in nearby economic development. The downstate chairman of New York's Empire State Development Corp., Patrick Foye, said earlier this summer that the Pennsylvania Station project could cost about $2 billion, though plans have been altered some since.

The project, which has yet to be finalized and go through public review, would be linked to the development of a train station in part of the Farley Post Office across Eighth Avenue. The developers have termed the entire development Moynihan Station, with the post office dubbed "Moynihan West" and Pennsylvania Station called "Moynihan East."

Earlier this year, the state was aiming for at least $600 million in federal funds, people familiar with the plans said, with the developers being expected to cover a significant portion of the station's cost and the state much of the balance.

"This is probably the most important transportation hub in the country — there ought to be a federal contribution to it," the president of the Regional Plan Association, Robert Yaro, said.

Based on their lobbying reports and the impressions of congressional staffers familiar with the plans, Vornado and Related seem to be targeting two main avenues for the funding: legislation that would "reauthorize" Amtrak, providing billions for long-term projects, and homeland security funding targeted for transportation improvements.

An Amtrak reauthorization has not happened for years, though the Senate yesterday rejected cuts to Amtrak's annual funding proposed by the Bush administration, approving $1.4 billion for the rail service as part of a transportation bill. The White House has threatened to veto the bill, a similar version of which passed the House earlier this summer.

An Amtrak reauthorization bill introduced by Senator Lautenberg of New Jersey contains a provision pushed by the developers' lobbyists, one that makes money eligible for the developments of new stations, according to a congressional staff member.

Mr. Lautenberg, chairman of a Senate subcommittee on transportation, has for years been a strong supporter of the Moynihan Station project, and he has been a recent beneficiary of thousands in campaign contributions from the developers. The CEO of Vornado, Steven Roth, gave the maximum $4,600 to Mr. Lautenberg's campaign fund earlier this year, and the CEO of Related, Stephen Ross, has given $1,000, according to campaign finance records.

"The two Steves," as the developers are known in real estate circles, also gave so far this year a combined $13,000 to Rep. Jerrold Nadler and the chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, Max Baucus, and political action committees associated with them, records show.

Vornado and Related's federal push comes as the plans for the project are being worked out behind-doors, as nine months into the Spitzer administration the state tries to sort out the details and juggle the needs of the numerous parties involved.

Amtrak, which for years had no desire to be in the Farley Post Office, now wants to base its operations in the building, according to an Amtrak spokesman, Clifford Cole.

In the place of the existing Madison Square Garden, the developers had been planning two skyscrapers of about 1,300 feet, though people familiar with the plans now say the state is leaning heavily against the towers at that location. The costs of physically supporting such structures above a train station are said to be prohibitive, and the state could move the development air rights to nearby Vornado-owned properties.

People briefed on the plans say the state now intends to begin the environmental review process some time this month or next, though the Spitzer administration has thus far not had a great track record of staying within such timelines, at least for its large economic development initiatives.
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Old September 14th, 2007, 11:21 PM   #404
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pffff. still no render
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Old September 15th, 2007, 02:48 AM   #405
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pffff. still no render
There'll be no renderings until it's finalized what will be built where.
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Old September 16th, 2007, 08:41 AM   #406
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but there will be renders this month. correct?
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Old September 16th, 2007, 09:46 AM   #407
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but there will be renders this month. correct?
if there aren't, there aren't. no sense agonizing about it one way or another.
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Old September 19th, 2007, 12:06 AM   #408
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yea just sayin ive been lookin forward ton this and now . . . . . . . so slow
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Old September 19th, 2007, 05:07 AM   #409
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A little dissapointed-maybe

If these two towers are built,if I've read up on this correctly,I think it's great,but not so close to the Empire State,if Penn Station is at where I think it is.West of the ESB? Before when the WTC was around the twins had their space downtown,but the ESB needs it's bumper space,It's like building a larger statue next to Liberty.takes away its glory. But I could be wrong.
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Old September 19th, 2007, 05:08 AM   #410
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A little dissapointed-maybe

If these two towers are built,if I've read up on this correctly,I think it's great,but not so close to the Empire State,if Penn Station is at where I think it is.West of the ESB? Before when the WTC was around the twins had their space downtown,but the ESB needs it's bumper space,It's like building a larger statue next to Liberty.Takes away its dominance. But I could be wrong.
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Old September 19th, 2007, 05:40 AM   #411
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Making a "bumper space" just for ESB is really letting the tail wag the dog, isn't it?
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Old September 19th, 2007, 06:30 AM   #412
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WTF!!!

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Originally Posted by depressio View Post
Making a "bumper space" just for ESB is really letting the tail wag the dog, isn't it?
Yeah...I couldnt agree more with you. What the **** is it with all these people concerned about the diminished appearance of the ESB? Were people in 1930 concerned about the building of the ESB because it could possibly diminish the appearance of the Chrysler building? Thats the dumbest reasoning I've ever heard. I love the ESB.... but personally, I cant wait for the day that its not even visible in the skyline anymore. I mean NYC is still known all over the world for its skyscrapers....so lets keep building them!! Its ridiculous NIMBY logic like that which, in large part, that has has resulted in NYC not having the worlds tallest building since 1973!!! Chicago as well as a host of other cities overseas are gonna completely surpass NYC in every skyscraper category/ranking if we listen to these people.....AAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
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Old September 19th, 2007, 08:02 AM   #413
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Yeah...I couldnt agree more with you. What the **** is it with all these people concerned about the diminished appearance of the ESB? Were people in 1930 concerned about the building of the ESB because it could possibly diminish the appearance of the Chrysler building? Thats the dumbest reasoning I've ever heard. I love the ESB.... but personally, I cant wait for the day that its not even visible in the skyline anymore. I mean NYC is still known all over the world for its skyscrapers....so lets keep building them!! Its ridiculous NIMBY logic like that which, in large part, that has has resulted in NYC not having the worlds tallest building since 1973!!! Chicago as well as a host of other cities overseas are gonna completely surpass NYC in every skyscraper category/ranking if we listen to these people.....AAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
couldn't have sed it better. thank you!!!!!!
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Old September 19th, 2007, 02:08 PM   #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsdl76 View Post
Yeah...I couldnt agree more with you. What the **** is it with all these people concerned about the diminished appearance of the ESB? Were people in 1930 concerned about the building of the ESB because it could possibly diminish the appearance of the Chrysler building? Thats the dumbest reasoning I've ever heard. I love the ESB.... but personally, I cant wait for the day that its not even visible in the skyline anymore. I mean NYC is still known all over the world for its skyscrapers....so lets keep building them!! Its ridiculous NIMBY logic like that which, in large part, that has has resulted in NYC not having the worlds tallest building since 1973!!! Chicago as well as a host of other cities overseas are gonna completely surpass NYC in every skyscraper category/ranking if we listen to these people.....AAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!


No no. Hang on a second there!
ESB is not just 'a skyscraper'; ESB is to NY what the Eiffel Tower is to Paris. You don't just encircle and bloke it for the sake of so called 'progress' and 'development' which, in my opinion, would take the shape of almost furiously erasing one's history according to your statement. ESB is landmark. And don't accuse me of camping with NIMBYs, I've always said that NY should have been more active for the last thirty years; it doesn't mean that a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g bigger and taller a-n-y-w-h-e-r-e is necessarily progress and a good to take.
There is enough space in the whole of Manhattan to build large pieces of modern forward-thinking architectural statements without ruining the few historical elements standing.
Architecture must move ahead but it must also not be an excuse for eradicating the past. It must not be a destructive revolution but a renewing transgression.

Oh and one more thing! ESB was finished a few months after the Chrysler building. I don't think this comparison helps you so much to get your point across...
On the other hand, mentioning it does help MY point since it is already enclaved by surrounding towers, diminishing its impact; sadly I may add.

At the end of the day, let's just hope that the quality of the Penn Station project is worth its future unavoidably immense presence.
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Old September 19th, 2007, 03:44 PM   #415
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At the end of the day, let's just hope that the quality of the Penn Station project is worth its future unavoidably immense presence.
what like the freedom tower.... pssh its the only thing spoiling the WTC redevelopement...... but its gonna stay because its an "icon" like the ESB. the eiffel tower wont be there forever just like the UK's taller rival was never finished... the ESB has had its day.whose to say they shouldn't totally overshadow it with sheer brilliance...
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Old September 19th, 2007, 03:49 PM   #416
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Lol. You mean a renewing progression, unless the Empire State Building transgressed. Quite hard for a building to do.

By building two new midtown towers isn't New York quite rightly replacing ESB's hegemony over the area, but not forgetting it? I don't think the argument is to encircle it and therefore forget it. ESB was built in the name of progress and development, it symbolises it. Using ESB as a reason to prevent progress and development is paradoxical. This is what the building means.
You can't erase what the building meant in 1930 but NYC should continue write its history with new endeavours otherwise in 200 years time we will all be admiring the Empire state building for what was achiecved in the 1930s rather than seeing what is possible today. History is a work in "progress".
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Old September 19th, 2007, 05:50 PM   #417
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You boys didn't get a thing of what I wrote, did you?
Since when did I give the Freedom Tower as an example of architectural achievement and well-used space?
No a soul on this planet would wish for the old WTC complex to be still standing proudly as it used to do; I believe that Ground Zero, given the significance of 9/11, should be a peaceful park... OR... the biggest tallest and most astounishing human creation ever imagined. Subject closed.


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You can't erase what the building meant in 1930 but NYC should continue write its history with new endeavours otherwise in 200 years time we will all be admiring the Empire state building for what was achiecved in the 1930s rather than seeing what is possible today. History is a work in "progress".

I grew up in the center of Paris. Trust me, I know which kind of static urban context you're describing above. No one is asking NY to sit still and admire its own past by fear of what the future might bring (it will never happen anyway, it's not an American way of doing things), but it is possible to develop great, sizeable projects distant enough from one another so that they don't overshadow each other. Even if the new buildings are 'sheer brilliance', I quote. Whose to say what that would be on top of all...?
One simply shouldn't allow his nation's greatest achievements to be 'put aside' simply because 'new' is coming.
So I say it again: this Penn Station plan, however amazing the final result will be, it darn close to ESB! If it was half a mile further North I wouldn't see the slightest problem with it.
So once again, let's hope it will be stuning enough to question ESB predominance in Midtown.



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The eiffel tower wont be there forever just like the UK's taller rival was never finished...
Off the subject, which UK project/vision are you talking about? Never heard of this but I'm sure it's very well worth a look.
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Old September 19th, 2007, 07:21 PM   #418
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as stated before, i personally do not mind if esb is surrounded and eventually overshadowed.... it's almost a 100 year old building and it's still nyc's tallest -_-
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Old September 19th, 2007, 07:56 PM   #419
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The Empire State building will retain it's prominence regardless of what is built in the surrounding area, the Chase Manhatten, and the PW tower, do not detract attention from 40 Wall st., or 60 Wall st., they just show that times change.

Look at it this way, using New York city as an example, look at a photograph of the city (lower or midtown) from the 1930's, then look at a photo of the city today, then (realistically) imagine those shots in 70 years, the beauty of a building is not destroyed just becouse a large(er) tower is built next door,

Look at the SWFC and Jin Mao, they look spactacular together.!!!
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Old September 19th, 2007, 10:49 PM   #420
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I'll leave you the last word here.
Perhaps it's for the best when it happens.

I already miss so much what I used to call the 'New York Gates' (original WTC of course), it'll just be a bit painful to see ESB hidden if the final result isn't up to the job.

LET'S WAIT!!! We don't even have a rendering yet for God' sake!!
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