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Old June 18th, 2007, 11:38 PM   #101
LLoydGeorge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyFish View Post
Take a pill dude! Remember, this is "proposed" and in NYC. My kids are 10 and 13 so I figure at the rate things happen in NYC I'll take my grandchildren to the groundbreaking.
I doubt it. Vornado has invested a lot of money in this development. The city sorely needs new space, and the city and state support the development. Vornado already stated that they expect to start the project in 2008.
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Old June 19th, 2007, 12:29 AM   #102
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This is the comment I was quoting...Claiming 11 supertalls??? If these 2 are constructed then I might say NYC has 6 or 7. But claiming 11 seems a little much when Bank of America is 53 stories. 80 South Street is 56 and NY Times Headquarters is 52. I think it almost a stretch to call The Chrysler Building a supertall. IMO
floor count doesn't determine if building is supertall or not. but when i look at that diagram i see 4 supertalls. i don't count the spires.
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Old June 19th, 2007, 12:33 AM   #103
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floor count doesn't determine if building is supertall or not. but when i look at that diagram i see 4 supertalls. i don't count the spires.
My point exactly. A 50 story/700 ft. building with a 200-300 ft. spire isn't a "supertall" in my book.
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Old June 19th, 2007, 03:30 AM   #104
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My point exactly. A 50 story/700 ft. building with a 200-300 ft. spire isn't a "supertall" in my book.
And no building except the NYT expresses that. The CB and BoA's roofs are well over 900 feet tall. 80SS is so damn unique and daring that you just have to let is slide by (even though its roof is over 800'). Everything else has roofs that are well over 1000' tall. Even if you define a supertall as "a building with a roof over 1,000' tall," I'd still be willing to bet that NYC will have at least a dozen by 2017, let alone everything else.
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Old June 19th, 2007, 04:28 AM   #105
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Nice concept, but who needs it?

With the economy entering a slump, I doubt there will be the kind of demand for additional office space to mandate the construction of such an enormous project. Class A office vacancy in Manhattan is about 6%. New WTC, alone, will more than meet the increase in demand for class A office space over the next five years. The Midtown Towers project, realistically, will likely be downscaled, delayed, or abandoned altogether.

Personally, I would like to see it built--it would be a nice addition to the aging skyline.
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Old June 19th, 2007, 04:43 AM   #106
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Nice concept, but who needs it?
you can probably post that line in all of the threads in 75% of the Supertall forum.
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Old June 19th, 2007, 05:19 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Califoreigner View Post
Nice concept, but who needs it?

With the economy entering a slump, I doubt there will be the kind of demand for additional office space to mandate the construction of such an enormous project. Class A office vacancy in Manhattan is about 6%. New WTC, alone, will more than meet the increase in demand for class A office space over the next five years. The Midtown Towers project, realistically, will likely be downscaled, delayed, or abandoned altogether.

Personally, I would like to see it built--it would be a nice addition to the aging skyline.
NY has an extreme demand for new space. This is urgently needed. All new towers that are built fill up instantly. Of the 15 or so 50+ story office towers completed since 2000, all are full. In fact, an article in the June 18, 2007 edition of Crains noted that Class A space is so tight in NY that it's now priced at $150 s/f in prime locations. No US city comes remotely close to that.
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Old June 19th, 2007, 07:08 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Califoreigner View Post
Nice concept, but who needs it?

With the economy entering a slump, I doubt there will be the kind of demand for additional office space to mandate the construction of such an enormous project.
I don't know what kind of economic news you follow. The economy is actually doing quite well. In fact, there is more concern about keeping to economy from overheating than about it being in a slump. The US GDP is expected to grow at a rate of 4% this quarter, which is very strong. Many other countries are also experiencing strong growth (hence the increase in interest rates all over the world), which spills over into yet other countries, including here in the US. IMO, the economy is doing very, very well. Yes, there is a scare in the housing market, but the office real estate market is doing very well, especially in NYC. They could use this office space right now, let alone after how many years it would take to complete this project. When projects take this long, they have to build it in anticipation of future needs anyway.

On a different note, is anyone familiar with any of Vornado's other projects? What is his success rate? And how familiar is he with NY real estate development? That would probably give us a good idea of how solid of a proposal this is.

Either way, I think this is great news! I like the ESB, but it will still have its place. After all, Jin Mao still looks great in Shanghai even though it is being passed by SWFC.

Last edited by beaujoe; June 19th, 2007 at 07:16 AM.
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Old June 19th, 2007, 07:35 AM   #109
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Besides, its pretty obvious that this proposal had undergone a very detailed feasibility study, many factors go to the study. And there are sub-local factors to consider. Can't wait for the renders!
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Old June 19th, 2007, 09:10 AM   #110
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i think we should wait to see the renderings before we get 2 exited about this. who knows? they could be ugly as hell (i hope they're not, but still who knows?)
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Old June 19th, 2007, 01:32 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by beaujoe View Post
I don't know what kind of economic news you follow. The economy is actually doing quite well. In fact, there is more concern about keeping to economy from overheating than about it being in a slump. The US GDP is expected to grow at a rate of 4% this quarter, which is very strong.
I follow the Wall Street Journal and The Economist. If you know of better sources for economic news, please let me know. According to recent estimates, real US GDP growth for 2007 will be 1.9%, the lowest rate since the 2001-2002 recession. http://www.economist.com/countries/U...ofile-Forecast

The current shortage of office space in Manhattan is not so much the result of recent economic growth, but rather the result of relatively anemic construction activity in NYC from 1993-2000, when the economy was booming. The current shortage of office space, however, will likely be corrected within 5 to 6 years as massive new office developments, currently under construction, become available for leasing.
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Last edited by Califoreigner; June 19th, 2007 at 01:39 PM.
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Old June 19th, 2007, 02:45 PM   #112
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I think these (ie. the current supertall developments) will be the last major developments in NY for a while when the economic stumble inevitably does come. How much debt is America in now? Does this have to be paid back at any point? Does this relate to the US economy?

As a fan of skyscrapers and not politics i'd like NY to carry on with the iconic evolving skyline well into the future but i think there will be a hault as a result of the national economy at some point not to long off as i think these two factors are directly related.
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Old June 19th, 2007, 05:21 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Califoreigner View Post
I follow the Wall Street Journal and The Economist. If you know of better sources for economic news, please let me know. According to recent estimates, real US GDP growth for 2007 will be 1.9%, the lowest rate since the 2001-2002 recession. http://www.economist.com/countries/U...ofile-Forecast

The current shortage of office space in Manhattan is not so much the result of recent economic growth, but rather the result of relatively anemic construction activity in NYC from 1993-2000, when the economy was booming. The current shortage of office space, however, will likely be corrected within 5 to 6 years as massive new office developments, currently under construction, become available for leasing.

I am a New Yorker, and your statements are incorrect. More 50+ story office towers have been built in NY since 1993 than most cities have on their entire skyline. NY has an intense need for space. In addition to Wall Street, NY has WAY, WAY more Fortune 500 companies than any other American city, and it is practically the only US city that serves as US headquaters for foreign corporations. NY's demand for office space is unmatched by any other US city. The Bank of America Tower, for example, had over 1,000,000 s.f. that was not claimed by the B of A when the project was announced, and that space filled rapidly at $150 s.f. The building is now fully leased. The same holds true for buildings that have not even started construction at other sites in Manhattan. In fact, banks and other tenants are already lined up for the WTC buildings.

NY's commercial and residential property markets are unique. No US city has apartments that sell for $6,000/s.f., and office space that rents at $150/s.f.

Last edited by LLoydGeorge; June 19th, 2007 at 05:47 PM.
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Old June 19th, 2007, 05:27 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by beaujoe View Post
...
On a different note, is anyone familiar with any of Vornado's other projects? What is his success rate? And how familiar is he with NY real estate development? That would probably give us a good idea of how solid of a proposal this is....
Vornado Realty Trust is one of the largest property owners and developers in the US, and its shares are traded publicly on the NYSE. Check out its website: www.vno.com.

Also, Vornado owns not only many major office buildings near MSG but scores of small buildings that it is assembling into larger development sites. The value of those other properties will soar when this project is completed.
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Old June 19th, 2007, 06:38 PM   #115
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I don't like it period. It just seems so out of place. And for it to be twin towers it looks like it should be at WTC not in Midtown Manhattan. To me it really doesn't look right.
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Old June 19th, 2007, 06:39 PM   #116
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How can you say that when you haven't even seen the design?
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Old June 19th, 2007, 06:41 PM   #117
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ooooooohhhhhhhhhhh thats not it on those other pages!!!! oops!...I did it again
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Old June 19th, 2007, 06:49 PM   #118
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Yes that render was made by someone over on SSP to show how much of an impact they'd have, that's all.
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Old June 19th, 2007, 08:01 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by wearethefuture View Post
I think these (ie. the current supertall developments) will be the last major developments in NY for a while when the economic stumble inevitably does come.
.
yeeeah. well at least NYC is bold enough to have actually proposed these while rebuilding the entire WTC, as well as numerous towers... can I ask you, what credibility do you have in predicting the long-term national economy?
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Old June 19th, 2007, 09:37 PM   #120
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"Cablevision Nears Deal to Change Site of Madison Square Garden"
March 08, 2006

By Alex Frangos
From The Wall Street Journal Online

NEW YORK -- Sports landmark Madison Square Garden will be demolished and relocated under a tentative agreement signed by Cablevision Systems Corp., paving the way for more than $3 billion in real-estate development that will include a new train station, office towers and shops in the heart of Manhattan.

According to people familiar with the matter, MSG, a Cablevision subsidiary, signed a nonbinding memorandum of understanding several weeks ago with Vornado Realty Trust, a publicly traded New York real-estate investment trust, and Related Cos., a private developer, to build the new arena.

Exact terms of the deal weren't disclosed, but it would involve the parties agreeing to develop office towers where the current Madison Square Garden stands and rebuilding the arena a block away from its present site above Pennsylvania Station, New York's busiest commuter rail hub and a gateway for hundreds of thousands of workers, business travelers and tourists.

Vornado and Related won a contract last year from New York State to convert the historic James A. Farley Post Office -- across the street from the current Penn Station -- into a new commuter rail station, shopping and commercial space. The move has been widely talked about for weeks. The memorandum was earlier reported in Crain's New York Business. All parties declined to comment. The pact isn't finalized.

The deal could create a windfall for Cablevision, of Bethpage, N.Y., and the real-estate developers. Shares of Vornado Realty Trust, which has been buying property in the area for years, rose on the reports. As of 4 p.m. in composite trading on the New York Stock Exchange, Vornado was at $91.12, up $1.68. Cablevision was at $26.50, up 10 cents, also on the Big Board.

Vornado, headed by real-estate heavyweight Steven Roth, has long coveted the current MSG site. Vornado owns several adjacent properties. Mr. Roth has said that his company realizes higher profits by owning clusters of properties because improvements to one building benefit the others. Related Cos., a politically connected New York developer, is well-known for tackling complicated mixed-use urban projects.

Another beneficiary of the deal could be Brookfield Properties Corp., a publicly traded real-estate company based in Toronto that owns a large plot across the street from where the new MSG will go. It has plans for a 2.5 million-square-foot mixed-use project there.

The transaction, if completed, means that, for the fifth time in its history, the New York arena is slated to be rebuilt. The original Madison Square Garden was built in 1874 in a converted train station at Madison Square, near Broadway and 23rd St. Architect Stanford White rebuilt the venue 10 years later, and it became a premier venue for boxing. In 1925, a new Madison Square Garden was built on 50th Street. In the mid-1960s, Pennsylvania Station was razed to make way for yet another MSG.

Email your comments to [email protected].

March 08, 2006
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